Do you native English-speakers have difficulty w/other Germa

LAA   Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:29 pm GMT
......nic languages? Do you find other Germanic languages to be very alien, as opposed to a language like French? I know I do. I have much more trouble with German or Dutch or Danish, than I do with French, Spanish, or Italian. I understand several times more French than I do a Germanic language. Granted, this might have something to do with knowledge of Spanish, but with English as my first tounge, you would think the other Germanic languages would come more naturally to me.

If I spoke unadulterated Anglo-Saxon, like the language of the English in 600 A.D., then perhaps this wouldn't be the case. But since then, English has underwent extensive Gallicization.
fab   Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:04 pm GMT
" English has underwent extensive Gallicization. "


No estoy seguro que hay mucahs influencias Celticas en Ingles, porque dices esto ?
LAA   Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:18 pm GMT
"No estoy seguro que hay mucahs influencias Celticas en Ingles, porque dices esto ? "

No, not Celtic influence, but Gallicized as in "Gallo-Romance" or French. Ever since the Norman conquest of Anglo-Saxon Britain, English has undergone extreme deviation from Proto-Germanic, unsurpassed among all other Germanic languages. That's why English is so alienated from other Germanic languages.
JR   Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:00 pm GMT
I think that is the main problem stopping many English-speakers from understanding other Germanic languages as efficiently as, say a Spanish speaker can understand other Romance langauges. While English vocabulary is something from the conservative figure of 60% to the liberal figure of 80% in latin-based words, the German figure doesn't even approach 50%.

I know that THAT is the main reason why I can never understand any more than 10% to 25% if I'm lucky in the case of Dutch, of another Germanic language.
LAA   Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:05 pm GMT
Yes, I agree. With my knowledge of Spanish, I can comprehend much of written Portuguese, and I can understand about 30% of Italian when spoken. And with my combined knowledge of English and Spanish, I can understand about 20-30% of conversations in French, so long as the speaker speaks slowly. But don't count on me to translate German or Dutch. And my English vocabulary is probably about 5-6 times greater than my Spanish vocabulary! And yet, my comprehension level of Latin languages far exceeds that of other Germanic languages.
fab   Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:14 pm GMT
" And with my combined knowledge of English and Spanish, I can understand about 20-30% of conversations in French "

En que sentido el Ingles te ayuda a entender el Frances ? Conocer el Espanol es sufficiente. Todas la palabras del Ingles que son similares al Frances exiten tambien en Espanol.
LAA   Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:45 pm GMT
"En que sentido el Ingles te ayuda a entender el Frances ? Conocer el Espanol es sufficiente. Todas la palabras del Ingles que son similares al Frances exiten tambien en Espanol."

It's just that in a lot of instances, the English words are actually closer to the French equivalents, than the Spanish are, because so much of English is directly borrowed from French.

There was an example that either you or someone else posted, showing phrases and sentences in both French and Spanish, and used them as examples to show how I use more of my knowledge of English to decipher the French words. I'm trying to find it from one of our older threads.
Fredrik from Norway   Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:21 pm GMT
Brennus wrote:
"35 years ago, I took a German class at a community college near Seattle."
I just love your habit of speaking about the (for many modern teen agers) distant past as if it was yesterday! It's very refreshing!
:-)
fab   Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:44 pm GMT
" 35 years ago... "

;) you're right, 35 years ago I wasn't part of this world yet.



LAA, estoy de acuerdo que la mayoria de estas palabras son directamente de origen frances (con generalmente pocas transformaciones escritas, aunque la prononciacion inglesa sea completamente diferente de la francesa que oralmente no es possible entender y reconocer), Las versiones Espanoles son totalmente identifiables.

Por ejemplo en tu texto, la palabras de origen frances/romance son :

just - Es. justo (fr. juste)
instances - Es. instancias (fr. instances)
actually - Es. actualmente (fr. actuellement) - FALSE FRIEND
equivalents - Es. equivalentes (fr. équivalents)
much - Es. Mucho (en este caso es similar solamente con espanol)
directly - Es. directamente (fr. directement)
example - Es. ejemplo (Fr. exemple)
posted - Es. postado (Fr. posté)
phrases - Es. frases ( Fr. phrases)
used - Es utilizado (Fr. utilisé)

La palabras espanolas son tan faciles a entender que las palabras francesas.
LAA   Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:44 pm GMT
Do any of you remember that older thread, where me, and I belive either sergio or Aldvs, were discussing how I pick up on a lot of French, not because of Spanish, but because of my English. He posted two or three sentences in both French and Spanish to show the similiarites between the two languages, and then posted several individual words showing the similiarites.

I then used all his examples to show him how I easily relate many French words to English, and not Spanish in many instances.

If any of you could find that thread, I would really appreciate it, so I could give Fab a visual picture.
fab   Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:19 am GMT
I just took a French text about a winter storm in Spain :

" L'Espagne a décrété jeudi l'état d'alerte dans diverses parties du pays, en raison de fortes chutes de neige et de pluies torrentielles. Citant les prévisions de l'Institut national de météorologie, la direction générale de la protection et des urgences civiles d'Espagne a prévu des tempêtes de neige sur Madrid, Extremadura et Castille-La Manche. Les Canaries subiront des vents violents de 75 km par heure et des précipitations s'abattront sur Santa Cruz, Tenerife et Palmas. La neige a déjà bloqué la circulation sur 13 routes de montagne. Le temps froid s'atténuera petit à petit la semaine prochaine. Fin "


An average english speaker would recognise the folowing words :

"decrété, alerte, diverse, parties, torrentiel, citant, institut, national, meteorologie, direction, generale, protection, urgence, civil, violents, bloqué, circulation, montagne. "

all of these words are almost the same in spanish, completly recognisable :

" decretado, alerta, diversa, partes, torrencial, citando, instituto, nacional, meteologia, direccion, general, proteccion, urgencias, civil, violento, bloqueado, circulacion, montana "


Knowing English is useless to understand french if you are a native spanish speaker. It can be usefull if spanish is not your native language and your spanish vocabulary is limited.
LAA   Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:24 am GMT
Ahah! Here it is, I found it.

Greg: "Exemples d'emploi de <la> :
la mer
la terre
la lune
la télévision
la station
la maison
la France
la Grèce



Si le substantif féminin commence par une voyelle, <la> devient <l'> :
l'abstention
l'attention
l'intention
l'Espagne
l'Allemagne
l'otarie
l'utilité
l'hystérie (le <h> ne se prononce pas)"


LAA: ""la mer
la terre
la lune
la télévision
la station
la maison
la France "

If you don't mind, I will take this opportunity to illustrate why I often relate French more with English than I do Spanish in some cases.

"mer" - I would relate this to Spanish 'mar - sea'
"terre" - I would relate this with Spanish 'tierra' - land
"lune" - I would relate this with Spanish 'luna' - moon
"television" - I would relate this with Spanish "television" (but only because of the accent marks)
"station" - I would relate this with the English "station" which is the exact same word, not the Spanish "estacion"
"maison" - I would relate this with English "mansion", not Spanish "casa"
"France" - I would relate this with English "France", which is spelled the same way, not with Spanish "Francia".

Those are just basic examples, which you yourself provided. But perhaps this is why I think of French as being the most distant Romance language. I generally think of Romance languages as having a lot of words which end in pronounced vowels like "o" or "a", with "T"s pronounced almost like an English (th) as in Taco, Tortilla, Terreno, Tio, or my own last name, Teran and "R"s that are rolled. French on the other hand, is flat like English, and lacks the same phonology that Italian and Spanish have. I also think of Romance languages as being phonetic, the way Spanish and Italian are. French is much like English in that regard, with a sharp contrast between written and spoken language.

And so many English words are spelled and pronounced almost identically as their French versions, like "boy", blue", (whereas Spanish is "nino, azul") that I often understand more French not because of similar vocabulary in Spanish, but because of its similitary to English, as English has borrowed so much of its vocabulary from French. Those are two more basic examples.

I don't know how to write tildes and accent marks on my keyboard, so excuse the lack thereof. "

Sigma: "Otros ejemplos:

La petite fille va couper le papier
La pequeña niña va a cortar el papel

Le cheval va sauter
El caballo va a saltar

La famme = La mujer
La nourriture = La comida
La proposition = La proposición
Une salle de bains = Una sala de baño "

LAA: "Yes, I see the similarities, but you provided yet more examples for my opinion.

I know French is not Germanic, but English is, and English has borrowed so many thousands of words from French, that they are used commonly in English.

"La petite fille va couper le papier"

I would relate about half of this with English. To break it down word by word, this is how I would relate to it in my mind:

La- Spanish - La

"petite" - English - petite (small, as in petite frame, or dress size)

"fille" - English fille - used to refer to maidens, or female horses

"va" - Spanish va

"couper" - I wouldn't be able to relate this word to either language

"le" - Spanish - article

"papier" - English - paper, not "papel"

Other than the verb and the articles, I would relate the main words of this sentence to English.

"Le cheval va sauter"

I would relate "cheval" to English "chivalry", which comes from the word which meant "mounted warrior" or "knight". The rest of course I would relate to Spanish.

"La famme" - I would relate this to English "feminine" or the common expression "femme", which in English means something related to women.

"La nourriture" - I would relate this to English "nourishment", which is what food is sometimes called. Definitely not "comida".

"La proposition" - I would relate this to English, because it is spelled exactly the same way, and is pronounced nearly identical in English.

"Une salle de bains" - This is without a doubt very similar to Spanish on paper. But try saying that out loud with a French pronounciation, and see how similar it sounds to Spanish. Try picking that out of a sentence spoken in French at a fast pace, when you don't speak French. I tell you now, it would not sound anything like "Una sala de bano)"
LAA   Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:33 am GMT
"Knowing English is useless to understand french if you are a native spanish speaker. It can be usefull if spanish is not your native language and your spanish vocabulary is limited. "

Well Spanish is not my first language, and my vocabulary is limited compared to English. But nontheless, in spoken form, these Spanish words of similar origin which are present in French are not pronounced nearly the same at all, and would not be recognizable. The pronounciation and spelling is actually closer to English.
JR   Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:58 am GMT
He's right. While in written, French looks much more similar to Spanish than it does English, in spoken, English pronnounciation is closer to French than it is to Spanish. For example, the word example. In English it is pronnounced similar to how it is in French (eksampel) instead of (ehemplo).

Knowing English would make learning French a little easier because of the shared vocabulary, knowing Spanish too actually gives you the possibility of mastering it, because Spanish and French share (most of) the same grammar.

Knowing all the chinese words in the dictionary is no use to you unless you can put them in the right order.
LAA   Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:05 am GMT
Exactly JR.