In the languages that you know, how is /r/ pronounced? I know of three options--like the spanish as a vibration, like the Americans as a lateral, or like the Parisian French in the back of the throat. Are there any more?
/r/
I know what you mean by the English "r", but what exactly does "lateral" pronounciation mean?
I find the French style to be difficult to pronounce. I must speak very slowly in French in order to pronounce the words properly. But, English, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, and many Portuguese "r"s, along with many Slavic ones are easy to pronounce. The "gutteral" r, that comes from the back of the throat in French and Germanic languages other than English, are hard for me to pronounce properly.
I find the French style to be difficult to pronounce. I must speak very slowly in French in order to pronounce the words properly. But, English, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, and many Portuguese "r"s, along with many Slavic ones are easy to pronounce. The "gutteral" r, that comes from the back of the throat in French and Germanic languages other than English, are hard for me to pronounce properly.
Jonathan Mark : « (...) like the Parisian French (...) ».
Il n'existe pas de /r/ spécifiquement "parisien". En revanche /r/ admet des réalisations multiples partout en France (et pas seulement en diatopie : c'est surtout l'environnement phonologique qui conditionne telle ou telle réalisation ; vient ensuite l'approche sociologique).
LAA : *<gutteral> —> <guttural>, à moins, évidemment, que tu veuilles évoquer quelque chose de viscéral, voire tripal... ce qui n'est pas le cas de nos chers /r/ en français.
Il n'existe pas de /r/ spécifiquement "parisien". En revanche /r/ admet des réalisations multiples partout en France (et pas seulement en diatopie : c'est surtout l'environnement phonologique qui conditionne telle ou telle réalisation ; vient ensuite l'approche sociologique).
LAA : *<gutteral> —> <guttural>, à moins, évidemment, que tu veuilles évoquer quelque chose de viscéral, voire tripal... ce qui n'est pas le cas de nos chers /r/ en français.
Now, Greg, you're talking to me in a foreign language again. Do you realize that you're wasting your breath if I don't understand 60-70% of what you say?
>>Some linguists also speak of Japanese 'r' which sounds similar to English dd in 'golf caddy' or 'Eddy.' <<
Flapped "t" or alveolar tap.
Flapped "t" or alveolar tap.
LAA : « (...) foreign language (...) ».
Mais c'est ta langue qui m'est étrangère, LAA.
Mais c'est ta langue qui m'est étrangère, LAA.
" LAA : « (...) foreign language (...) ».
Mais c'est ta langue qui m'est étrangère, LAA. "
Tu as raison Greg, un grand nombre d'Anglophones ont du mal a réaliser que l'Anglais est pour 90% des habitants de la planète, certes une langue utilisée de manière internationale, mais une langue étrangère.
Je pense que beaucoup d'Anglophones ont par exemple du mal à s'identifier en tant qu'Anglophones car ils ont tendence à penser que c'est le cas de tout le monde de parler Anglais, et donc pensent que ce n'est pas une chose qui les défini.
Mais c'est ta langue qui m'est étrangère, LAA. "
Tu as raison Greg, un grand nombre d'Anglophones ont du mal a réaliser que l'Anglais est pour 90% des habitants de la planète, certes une langue utilisée de manière internationale, mais une langue étrangère.
Je pense que beaucoup d'Anglophones ont par exemple du mal à s'identifier en tant qu'Anglophones car ils ont tendence à penser que c'est le cas de tout le monde de parler Anglais, et donc pensent que ce n'est pas une chose qui les défini.
"I know what you mean by the English "r", but what exactly does "lateral" pronounciation mean?"
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_consonant>
Apparently the english [r] is not a lateral, but this will describe what actually is.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_consonant>
Apparently the english [r] is not a lateral, but this will describe what actually is.
" I find the French style to be difficult to pronounce. "
I think the french "r" is very easy for Spanish people, because it is quite close to the spanish "j/g" prononciation.
I think the french "r" is very easy for Spanish people, because it is quite close to the spanish "j/g" prononciation.
I remember that I had a facility to make the sound of the guttural French 'r' at high school even "overacting" the sound so rapidly I said ra-re-ri-ro-ru before the eyes of my surprised class pals. Today I THINK that I don't do it bad but hardly the same from 25 years ago. Oh good old times!
LAA wrote:
"The "gutteral" r, that comes from the back of the throat in French and Germanic languages other than English."
The only Germanic languages where an uvular r (which I think is what you mean with guttural Parisian r) is the rule, is Danish. In German, Dutch, Swedish and Norwegian uvular r is a variety along with a rolled r.
Icelandic is the only among these languages where rolled r is the rule.
"The "gutteral" r, that comes from the back of the throat in French and Germanic languages other than English."
The only Germanic languages where an uvular r (which I think is what you mean with guttural Parisian r) is the rule, is Danish. In German, Dutch, Swedish and Norwegian uvular r is a variety along with a rolled r.
Icelandic is the only among these languages where rolled r is the rule.
In Dutch there is quite some variety, most of the people use [ʁ](the fricative French r) and [ʀ] (uvular trill) combined with an r very close to an American r. [ɾ] combined with the r similar to an American r is also widely used. These versions are common in the urban agglomeration of western Holland.
In the south of Holland the vast majority of people solely uses the uvular r. Exlusive use of the alveolar r is also represented, but is the least popular version, although considered the most correct/classic.
And I recently found out that there is a group of people using both the alveolar and uvular r (randomly? or at personal preference?) combined with the American sounding r (yes that makes 3 different r sounds :S)
This American sounding r has existed for a long time in a few places, but has gained ground and spread all over Holland the past +/- 20 years, probably due to media.
In the south of Holland the vast majority of people solely uses the uvular r. Exlusive use of the alveolar r is also represented, but is the least popular version, although considered the most correct/classic.
And I recently found out that there is a group of people using both the alveolar and uvular r (randomly? or at personal preference?) combined with the American sounding r (yes that makes 3 different r sounds :S)
This American sounding r has existed for a long time in a few places, but has gained ground and spread all over Holland the past +/- 20 years, probably due to media.
My dialect of English, that of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, (as mentioned before) has a uvular r in alternation with a laminal postalveolar approximant r. Note, though, that the uvular r is generally an approximant even though it sometimes can be somewhat fricative (particularly when emphasized or drawn out).
I have such a uvular r in all positions except after coronals, where the postalveolar r always appears, and after labials, where it exists in free variation with a postalveolar r. However, many here may have a more conservative pattern where all onsets have a postalveolar r (even though I myself find it very hard to pronounce a postalveolar r, much the less an alveolar r, without a preceding coronal or labial).
As for why my dialect has a uvular r, I am not really sure. It might be due to German influence or it might just be a separate local innovation.
I have such a uvular r in all positions except after coronals, where the postalveolar r always appears, and after labials, where it exists in free variation with a postalveolar r. However, many here may have a more conservative pattern where all onsets have a postalveolar r (even though I myself find it very hard to pronounce a postalveolar r, much the less an alveolar r, without a preceding coronal or labial).
As for why my dialect has a uvular r, I am not really sure. It might be due to German influence or it might just be a separate local innovation.