QUESTION ABOUT LE PASSE SIMPLE

Guest   Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:59 pm GMT
>>« Hei de vencer a corrida»
The same in Spanish: Hé de ganar la carrera. English "I have to.....">>
It does not mean “I have to” but I shall win , I will win. (same as in Spanish)
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Yes. I agree with you. I chose the wrong words in English.

>><<e) Verb "Haver" as an auxiliary verb.
«Eles hão de vencer este jogo.»
Ellos han de ganar este juego. But you are repeting the "have to" usage.>>
Yes, but I'm referring the verb as an auxiliary I did not mention it on the other example.
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For me, «Eles hão de vencer este jogo.» and « Hei de vencer a corrida» are identical in construction, meaning and use of the verb "haver". Please explain me the difference.

>>f) Verb "Haver" as impersonal (no subject):
«Houve duas guerras mundiais.» (houve = happened)
The same in Spanish, but this is identical with a)
a) Verb “ haver” sinonim of “ happening” (acontecer) or “occur” (ocorrer).
«Houve um acidente. / Aconteceu um acidente.»
It is not identical to a) because you do not say : Ocorreu um acidente.
You need the subject:
A rua onde ocorreu o acidente.
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In Spanish, ocurrir, acontecer, pasar, and haber, are impersonal verbs in the meaning of "something happening". So, "ocurrió un accidente" is correct in Spanish, as far as I know. In the meaning of existence in a punctual moment, only haber is correct. (example f)). Perhaps there is the confussion.


<<e) Verb "Haver" as an auxiliary verb.
«Ele havia tido um encontro com um colega.»
Is it possible to use "ter" here?>>
Yes .” Haver” can be the auxiliary of “Ter” and “Ter” can be the auxiliary of “Haver”.
Ela havia tido um desapontamento.
Tinha havido um acidente na estrada.
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But, is not "ter" in contemporary Portuguese preferred over haver in this function of auxiliary?

>><<h) "Haver" with meaning 'there is/are', sinonim of “ to exist":
«Tinha muitas maçãs em cima da mesa ./Havia muitas maçãs em cima da mesa.»
«Na festa tinha mais balões que crianças./ Na festa havia mais
balões que crianças.»
Again, h) usage is identical with a) and f)>>

{a) Verb “ haver” sinonim of “ happening” (acontecer) or “occur” (ocorrer).
«Houve um acidente. / Aconteceu um acidente.»
f) Verb "Haver" as impersonal (no subject):
«Houve duas guerras mundiais.» (houve = happened)}
No, it is different.
“Haver” as in “acontecer”:
“Aconteceu um acidente” [Houve um acidente]
The usage is different because you can not say:
Aconteceram muitas maçãs em cima da mesa.
The verb that “Haver” substitutes is not “Acontecer” but “Ter”.
Tinha muitas maçãs em cima da mesa .[Havia muitas maçãs em cima da mesa]
OK... I think it was the same confussion as between a) and f)

I forgot one more usage of "haber" in Spanish, the assumptive one:
"¿has visto a Jorge?"
"HA de estar en su habitación"="seguramente estará en su habitación"
Does it used in this sense in Pt as well?


The usage depends of what verb "Haver" is synonym.
JR   Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:40 pm GMT
Unfortunately they do. I myself prefer the Simple Passé because it's what I'm used to in English and Spanish. I'm not used to using avoir (haber/to have) as an auxiliary.

J'ai parlé to me sounds like Yo he hablado (I have spoken) instead of Yo hablé (I spoke). It's OK every now and then, but after a while...
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...I have posted on Antimoon. Later, I have eaten some food. It was not late before I have gone to sleep...
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...I posted on Antimoon. Later, I ate some food. It was not late before I went to sleep...
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It's just... weird to me.
Gringo   Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:12 pm GMT
««For me, «Eles hão de vencer este jogo.» and « Hei de vencer a corrida» are identical in construction, meaning and use of the verb "haver". Please explain me the difference.»»


Yes, they are identical. As I said before I did not mention it was used as an auxiliary on the first example, so I repeat it on the second example only focusing it was making use of the auxiliary (conjugação perifrástica).

One is in the first person of the singular “ [EU] Hei de vencer a corrida”. The other is in the third person of the plural “ELES hão de vencer este jogo”.

“hei-de”[pt] , “hei de”[br]; “hão-de” [pt] ,” hão de” [br]

[ “hei de” , "hão de" are also used in Portugal but the correct, in [pt], is “hei-de” (o hífen, emprega-se quando a forma verbal é monossilábica)].


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««In Spanish, ocurrir, acontecer, pasar, and haber, are impersonal verbs in the meaning of "something happening".
So, "ocurrió un accidente" is correct in Spanish, as far as I know.

In the meaning of existence in a punctual moment, only haber is correct. (example f)). Perhaps there is the confussion.»»


I hear all the time “Houve um acidente.” but I think I would find strange if some one just says “Ocorreu um acidente.”

These ones are common phrases:

“Hoje correu um acidente na rua 13.”
“A rua onde ocorreu o acidente era muito escorregadia.”
“Como, quando e onde ocorreu o acidente?”


But I went to verify and the information I got is that
as in "acontecer" (to happen) the verbs “haver” and “ocorrer” are synonyms, and when it is correct to use “haver” is correct to use “ocorrer”.

As “Houve um acidente.” is correct, the above rule makes “ Ocorreu um acidente.” also correct.

So, “Ocorreu um acidente.” can also be used. (yeap, I was repeating myself)

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««<<e) Verb "Haver" as an auxiliary verb.
«Ele havia tido um encontro com um colega.»
Is it possible to use "ter" here?>>
Yes .” Haver” can be the auxiliary of “Ter” and “Ter” can be the auxiliary of “Haver”.
Ela havia tido um desapontamento.
Tinha havido um acidente na estrada.
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But, is not "ter" in contemporary Portuguese preferred over haver in this function of auxiliary?»»

As far as I know people still use both. When "ter" is preferred, in some regions, it does not mean people stopped using it. I read it everyday on the news papers, so I do not see that the usage is disapearing.

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««I forgot one more usage of "haber" in Spanish, the assumptive one:
"¿has visto a Jorge?"
"HA de estar en su habitación"="seguramente estará en su habitación"
Does it used in this sense in Pt as well?»»

Viste o Jorge? /Haveis visto o Jorge?*
Há-de estar na sua casa.

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more:

Ele ainda tem a haver 30 euros. [receber ] He has still 30 euros to receive.

O professor houve por bem anular a prova.* [decidir]. The teacher decided to make the assignment null.


Não há mister de acordares tão cedo .* [Precisar] It is not necessary for you to wake up so early.

Ele tem muitos haveres. [ bens] He has many worldly goods.

E que bem se houveram no jogo!* [avir-se] How good they did in the game.

Rafael não virá hoje, haja vista ter viajado. [Considerar] Rafael will not come today considering he travelled.


* not so common or old usage
todosmentira   Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:16 pm GMT
Haber is not only used as an auxiliary - there is the form:

'Haber de' + infinitivo

This is more or less equivalent to 'tener que' + infinitivo.

Along with the impersonal form - 'hay' - there are equivalents in other languages:

Catalan - Haver - (Haver de + inf. is like tener que/haber de in castllano.)
(Hi) ha is the impersonal form

Albanian - Kam ---- Used as an auxiliary as well as a main verb
Impersonal form --- Ka