update on information about the cumbric language revival and any news about the language itself
cumbrian language of north west england
Alan, *
On Antimoon its a custom to put your name in the name box and start the letter with the person you're adressing.
* It seems all the persons posting with Udo/Guinevere/Alan to ****,have posted messages arround the same time...this makes me draw the conclusion that these persons are but one person.Please use one name and post things that matter,otherwise the new forum software will recognise you as a Troll.
On Antimoon its a custom to put your name in the name box and start the letter with the person you're adressing.
* It seems all the persons posting with Udo/Guinevere/Alan to ****,have posted messages arround the same time...this makes me draw the conclusion that these persons are but one person.Please use one name and post things that matter,otherwise the new forum software will recognise you as a Troll.
Cumbric, now extinct, was a Celtic language spoken in Northern England, in the area where the county of Cumbria is situated and was also spoken in bordering Lancashire and down to Derbyshire. Although extinct, some farmers in Cumbria count sheep using terms that derive from Cumbric - eg Yan, Tan, Tethera, Methera, Pimp compared to Old Welsh "Un, Dou, Tri, Petwar, Pimp".
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Cumbric was the Brythonic Celtic language spoken in Cumbria, and southern Lowland Scotland, ie. the area anciently referred to as the Hen Ogledd. Place name evidence suggests it may also have been spoken further south, in the Yorkshire dales. Cumbric was once referred to as North Welsh and Cornish as South, or West, Welsh. Most linguists believe that it became extinct in the 11th century, after the incorporation of the semi-independent kingdom of Strathclyde into the kingdom of Scotland.
One of the main questions regarding the status of Cumbric, is whether it should be considered a separate language at all. The North-Welsh speaking area was probably isolated from the Welsh speaking kingdoms of Wales after the Battle of Chester in 616, which appears to have sealed the Northumbrian conquest of Lancashire and Cheshire. It is impossible for us to know how long Brittonic speech persisted in these conquered areas (although the Celtic place-name cluster around Wigan suggests there may have been pockets in which the language survived for a considerable time) or whether language innovations were transmitted between the North-Welsh and the Welsh of Wales.
The scarcity of linguistic evidence means that Cumbric's distinctness from Welsh is more deduced than proven. However, Cornish and Welsh evolved into separate, non-mutually intelligable languages in the period between 597-1000, after being geographically separated by the fall of the Cotswold region at the battle of Deorham. It is therefore highly probable that the final stages of Cumbric were very different from Welsh.
Although the language is long extinct it is arguable that traces of its vocabulary persisted into the modern era. In the 19th and 20th centuries sheep counts and children's counting rhymes which are possibly derived from Cumbric were collected throughout northern England and southern Scotland: eg Yan, Tan, Tethera, Methera, Pimp compared to Old Welsh "Un, Dou, Tri, Petwar, Pimp". Whether these counting systems bear any relation to the Brittonic dialects spoken in the region is a matter of some debate. It has been argued that these numerals were introduced to England by Welsh shepherds or monks during the medieval period. The fact that have also been collected outside of the region in which Cumbric was spoken may indicate that they were a later introduction from Wales, or, less probably that they are part of a wider celtic sub-strata. It is also possible that the counting systems were preserved in the Cumbric speaking region then exported into neighbouring areas.
More concrete evidence of Cumbric exists in the place-names of the extreme northwest of England and the South of Scotland, the personal names of Strathclyde Britons in Scottish, Irish and Anglo-Saxon sources, and a few Cumbric words surviving into the High Middle Ages in South West Scotland as legal terms.
Much of the origin and character of the Cumbric language remain a mystery. Apart from several insignificant Latin observational texts and place names, the language is today undocumented. What is known is that the language was Brythonic Insular Celtic, most likely descended from Old North Welsh, related to the presumed Brythonic Pictish language, and to Cornish and Breton. Due to its location, it is likely that Goidelic and Scandinavian loan-words were incorporated into the language before its demise.
Scottish words of possible Cumbric origin
It is not always easy to distinguish possible Pictish loanwords from those of Cumbric. They have been borrowed into both Lowland Scots and Scottish Gaelic, but because Gaelic is also a Celtic language, it would have shared much vocabulary with Cumbric anyway.
Bach - Cowpat, Welsh bawch, Gaelic buadhar
Baivenjar - Mean fellow, Welsh bawyn
Brat - an apron in Welsh, and the same in Gaelic. Found in Yorkshire
Brogat - A type of mead Welsh bragod (also found in Chaucer)
Coble - Small flat bottomed boat (also North East England), akin to Welsh ceubal and Latin caupulus
Crag - Rocks, either from Brythonic craig or Goidelic creag
Croude (Gaelic: Cruit Welsh: Crwth) - type of small harp, as opposed to clarsach
Croot - a small boy, Welsh crwt
Galnes - weregeld, or fine for homicide Welsh galanas
Linn - Pool in river; waterfall either from Brythonic llyn or Goidelic linne
Lum - Well known Scottish word for chimney, ?Welsh llumon
Peat - Probably from Brythonic for "piece" (Welsh peth "thing" vs. Gaelic cuid "part")
Pen - pointed conical hill, cf "Ben" (Gaelic: beinn probably of Pictish origin)
Poll - A pool either from Brythonic pwll or Goidelic poll
Vendace - Fish of Lochmaben, probably cognate with Gwyniad
Reconstructions
Reconstructed cognates in the language only number around 50, and the Celtic Culture of Northwest England has long since been forgotten. Despite this, several forms of "Revived" Cumbric are in their infancies. One is noted to be very similar to Old Welsh, while the other re-creates a hypothetical, distinct language representing what the language may have been like today had it never died out.
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To look at the sheep counting systems of various parts of Cumbria and Yorkshire and other northern counties using Cumbric numbers, go here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbric
It covers places such as Westmorland, Eskdale, Millom, High Furness, Wasdale, Teesdale, Swaledale and Wensleydale
-------------------------------------------------------
Cumbric was the Brythonic Celtic language spoken in Cumbria, and southern Lowland Scotland, ie. the area anciently referred to as the Hen Ogledd. Place name evidence suggests it may also have been spoken further south, in the Yorkshire dales. Cumbric was once referred to as North Welsh and Cornish as South, or West, Welsh. Most linguists believe that it became extinct in the 11th century, after the incorporation of the semi-independent kingdom of Strathclyde into the kingdom of Scotland.
One of the main questions regarding the status of Cumbric, is whether it should be considered a separate language at all. The North-Welsh speaking area was probably isolated from the Welsh speaking kingdoms of Wales after the Battle of Chester in 616, which appears to have sealed the Northumbrian conquest of Lancashire and Cheshire. It is impossible for us to know how long Brittonic speech persisted in these conquered areas (although the Celtic place-name cluster around Wigan suggests there may have been pockets in which the language survived for a considerable time) or whether language innovations were transmitted between the North-Welsh and the Welsh of Wales.
The scarcity of linguistic evidence means that Cumbric's distinctness from Welsh is more deduced than proven. However, Cornish and Welsh evolved into separate, non-mutually intelligable languages in the period between 597-1000, after being geographically separated by the fall of the Cotswold region at the battle of Deorham. It is therefore highly probable that the final stages of Cumbric were very different from Welsh.
Although the language is long extinct it is arguable that traces of its vocabulary persisted into the modern era. In the 19th and 20th centuries sheep counts and children's counting rhymes which are possibly derived from Cumbric were collected throughout northern England and southern Scotland: eg Yan, Tan, Tethera, Methera, Pimp compared to Old Welsh "Un, Dou, Tri, Petwar, Pimp". Whether these counting systems bear any relation to the Brittonic dialects spoken in the region is a matter of some debate. It has been argued that these numerals were introduced to England by Welsh shepherds or monks during the medieval period. The fact that have also been collected outside of the region in which Cumbric was spoken may indicate that they were a later introduction from Wales, or, less probably that they are part of a wider celtic sub-strata. It is also possible that the counting systems were preserved in the Cumbric speaking region then exported into neighbouring areas.
More concrete evidence of Cumbric exists in the place-names of the extreme northwest of England and the South of Scotland, the personal names of Strathclyde Britons in Scottish, Irish and Anglo-Saxon sources, and a few Cumbric words surviving into the High Middle Ages in South West Scotland as legal terms.
Much of the origin and character of the Cumbric language remain a mystery. Apart from several insignificant Latin observational texts and place names, the language is today undocumented. What is known is that the language was Brythonic Insular Celtic, most likely descended from Old North Welsh, related to the presumed Brythonic Pictish language, and to Cornish and Breton. Due to its location, it is likely that Goidelic and Scandinavian loan-words were incorporated into the language before its demise.
Scottish words of possible Cumbric origin
It is not always easy to distinguish possible Pictish loanwords from those of Cumbric. They have been borrowed into both Lowland Scots and Scottish Gaelic, but because Gaelic is also a Celtic language, it would have shared much vocabulary with Cumbric anyway.
Bach - Cowpat, Welsh bawch, Gaelic buadhar
Baivenjar - Mean fellow, Welsh bawyn
Brat - an apron in Welsh, and the same in Gaelic. Found in Yorkshire
Brogat - A type of mead Welsh bragod (also found in Chaucer)
Coble - Small flat bottomed boat (also North East England), akin to Welsh ceubal and Latin caupulus
Crag - Rocks, either from Brythonic craig or Goidelic creag
Croude (Gaelic: Cruit Welsh: Crwth) - type of small harp, as opposed to clarsach
Croot - a small boy, Welsh crwt
Galnes - weregeld, or fine for homicide Welsh galanas
Linn - Pool in river; waterfall either from Brythonic llyn or Goidelic linne
Lum - Well known Scottish word for chimney, ?Welsh llumon
Peat - Probably from Brythonic for "piece" (Welsh peth "thing" vs. Gaelic cuid "part")
Pen - pointed conical hill, cf "Ben" (Gaelic: beinn probably of Pictish origin)
Poll - A pool either from Brythonic pwll or Goidelic poll
Vendace - Fish of Lochmaben, probably cognate with Gwyniad
Reconstructions
Reconstructed cognates in the language only number around 50, and the Celtic Culture of Northwest England has long since been forgotten. Despite this, several forms of "Revived" Cumbric are in their infancies. One is noted to be very similar to Old Welsh, while the other re-creates a hypothetical, distinct language representing what the language may have been like today had it never died out.
----------------------------------------------
To look at the sheep counting systems of various parts of Cumbria and Yorkshire and other northern counties using Cumbric numbers, go here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbric
It covers places such as Westmorland, Eskdale, Millom, High Furness, Wasdale, Teesdale, Swaledale and Wensleydale
Brennus : « Good, informative article above *by* Adam ».
Je dirais plutôt que c'est un sacré copier-coller !
Je dirais plutôt que c'est un sacré copier-coller !