Merged vowel in Canadian English

Lena   Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:19 am GMT
Hi,
do you happen to know the quality of the CotCaught merged vowel in Canadian English?

From what I've heard, it used to be [kAt], but there is a shift in speech of some people, so it can be [kQt] or [kOt] too. (Nova Scotia seems to be avoiding this shift, no [kQt]/[kot], only [kAt].)

Listening to/watching http://www.cbc.ca/video/#
I've noticed that male newscasters use the older non-shifted [kAt] pronunciation more frequentily, while female newscaster prefer the shifted pronunciation [kQt]/[kOt].

What do you think? Why is this difference?
many thanks
Sonar   Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:35 am GMT
Yes, it can be all three. In a sound change, male speakers tend to more conservative than female speakers, and young women tend to be leading the sound change. It also depends on which word comes before the vowel. Certain sounds tend to make the mouth more rounded than others. For example if you look at the "Please call Stella" clips at accent.gmu.edu most of the Canadian speakers pronounce "Bob" with rounded lips, because of the word "brother" coming before it. If it were a different word e.g. "and Bob said..." then it would be more likely to be realized as [A].
Guest   Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:37 am GMT
Sound changes typically are led by young women, followed by middle-age-women, followed by teenage boys, followed by older women, followed by young boys, followed by middle age men, and finally followed by older men.
Lazar   Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:53 pm GMT
One interesting thing is that the Canadian Oxford Dictionary (which you can see a sample of here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0195418166/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-2718261-6615005# ) uses [Q] for the merged vowel.
User   Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:34 pm GMT
>> uses [Q] for the merged vowel. <<

Well, it doesn't really matter what vowel you use to transcribe it, as they're all allophones of the same vowel, and a speaker could use any of those vowels.
Lazar   Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:48 pm GMT
<<Well, it doesn't really matter what vowel you use to transcribe it, as they're all allophones of the same vowel, and a speaker could use any of those vowels.>>

But the point of this thread is to determine *which allophone* is more common. I was just saying, it's interesting how the OCD decided to use [Q], rather than the more traditional [A], for that phoneme.
Luciana   Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:30 pm GMT
>> uses [Q] for the merged vowel. <<

That's strange. ''Canadian Oxford Dictionary'' (that should reflect the real Canadian pronunciation) and ''Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary'' (that uses RP English) have the same transcription of the word ''abominable'' (with Q), yet Canadian pronunciation is very different from the English (RP) one,and in Eastern Canada (P.E.I, Nova Scotia) it is definitely not a [Q] vowel, but an [A]: [@'bAmIn@b(@)l]
Lazar   Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:34 pm GMT
<<''Canadian Oxford Dictionary'' (that should reflect the real Canadian pronunciation) and ''Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary'' (that uses RP English) have the same transcription of the word ''abominable'' (with Q), yet Canadian pronunciation is very different from the English (RP) one,and in Eastern Canada (P.E.I, Nova Scotia) it is definitely not a [Q] vowel, but an [A]: [@'bAmIn@b(@)l]>>

But you're forgetting that there are a lot of Canadians (in Ontario and to the west) who use a rounded vowel for that phoneme, in which case their pronunciation of "abominable" would in fact be similar to the RP one.
Minnie   Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:25 am GMT
Some Canadians pronounce LAST and LOST in the same way, at least to my ear ;) [last]
Lazar   Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:15 am GMT
Well some Canadians would pronounce "last" as ["last], but I think those same people would probably tend to pronounce "lost" as ["lQst]. Barring an RP-style trap-bath split, I don't think that any Canadians would actually merge those two words. ;-)
User   Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:50 pm GMT
>> But the point of this thread is to determine *which allophone* is more common. I was just saying, it's interesting how the OCD decided to use [Q], rather than the more traditional [A], for that phoneme. <<

Well, in my own Northwestern accent, which is about as close to a Canadian accent as you can get in the US, I think I use all of the various allophones of that vowel. As long as you don't use [a] for "cot", or a very raised? [O], then you won't stick out as having an accent to me.

>> Some Canadians pronounce LAST and LOST in the same way, at least to my ear ;) [last] <<

But [a] is never used for "lost". [A] is though, right?
Valentina   Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:26 am GMT
Hello. I would like to know what is the pronunciation of the merged vowel in COT/CAUGHT in Canada? Is it [A] or [Q]?: [kAt] or [kQt]...
FATHER/BOTHER have [A] sound or [Q sound]?

I've heard many female Canadians pronouncing ''Ottawa, lost, dawn, don'' with (rounded) [Q] instead of [A]...Oxford Canadian Dictionary uses [Q] for the merged vowel.

But I've never heard anyone pronouncing Mississauga with the stressed [Q]...But the Oxford Canadian Dictionary says it's [Q]. All Canadians I know use [A] in Mississauga /misi'sAg@/. I'm puzzled...

What is the original pronunciation? [A] or [Q]?
Why men mostly use [A] while women used (rounded) [Q] which makes them sound more British?

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:West/Central_Canadian_English#Father-bother_merger

or here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Canadian_English#Short_A_in_Canadian_English
''
Well I'll be damned - the COD does indicate a /ɒ/ rather than a /ɑ/ for those words. I certainly do not pronounce them with a /ɒ/. I do not know how much faith we can put in the COD though because even for "father" it indicates /fɒðɜr/ without giving /fɑðɜr/ as an alternate. I routinely hear Canadians using both. The COD also lists the 'ol' in words like "old", "cold" etc. as being pronounced with [o/o:] (as in "road", "cope", etc.) rather than with [ɔ] (the 'AU/AL' sound of British English in words like "caught", "all", "water") that we use for those words in Canada (depending on their specific accent, the British use either). Anyway, I suspect that /drɒmə/ rather than /drɑmə/ etc. is almost a kind of overcorrection. I'll have to listen more carefully for which is being used by people who don't pronounce it as /dræmə/. --D P J 00:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)''


What a mess :(
David B   Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:18 am GMT
I notice that this dictionary has [A] and [O] before /r/

part v port mean [A] and [O] are different phonemes

Presumably in the accents represented by this dictionary [Q] and [A] are allophones of the same phoneme and [O] and [o:] are allophones of the same phoneme


http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/Canadian/canphon3.html#pasta

says CE tends to have /{/ rather than /A/ for the 'a's of foreign borrowings
Vanessa   Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:11 am GMT
I've found this on [Q] (aw):

''I think it's more of a regional prnounciation, this 'cawnstant'. I've
encountered it in Toronto from time to time, but also in Vancouver, where many
central Canadians go to live. I don't think it's a general Canadian
pronounciation though - one encounters it, but not invariably.

One also sometimes wonders if there's a tad of snobbery attached to this
pronounciation in _some_ cases. Difficult to prove, but I have seen Canadian
politicos change from their usual to the 'aw' sound - notably Ed Broadbent of
old and several others - often when they begin to get lots of national
exposure. Nex ''

source:
http://groups.google.hr/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/1b66c84edc39cceb/a68cdb1354a09b46?q=+%22canadian+pronunciation%22&lnk=ol&hl=en&
Josh Lalonde   Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:21 am GMT
Yes, I've seen some textbooks and dictionaries that say the [Q] pronunciation is universal, or most common here, but I disagree. In Ottawa at least, [Q] is limited to environments with /l/; for some speakers only before it, and for others either before or after. All other situations have [A]. When I hear the [Q] pronunciation, I notice it as different, whereas the [A] form sounds 'normal'. For example, the message on the phone when you call a number that doesn't exist says "this number is not [nQt] in service..." and it seems foreign to me, almost British. I don't think there is a father-bother distinction though, so if someone regularly had [Q] for /A/, they would presumably pronounce 'father' [fQD@`], which sounds strange to me.
As for which is older, I expect it's [A]. There's a much cited diary entry from a British immigrant to Ontario in the 1850's that said that Canadians pronounced 'sauce' like 'sarce'. Presumably she meant [sA:s] (I don't know if phonemic length still existed in Canadian English at the time).