Who's right?

M56   Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:00 am GMT
Many American English speakers would say that "might could" is incorrect usage. I, a British English speaker would say that the American English use of "Did you see the new Clooney film" (when it's still in theatres) is incorrect. So, which of us is right? Are both "might could" and that AE use of the past simple, where BE speakers would use the present perfect, incorrect?
JakubikF   Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:48 pm GMT
In my opinion it is a matter of American English speakers' ignorance. Most of them don't care about the original rules of English. They create their own, separated grammar. I can't imagine any situation when I use Past Simple instead of Present Perfect in the sentence mentioned above. It just natural that it is obvious and necessary to say "Have you watched the new Clooney film?". I would say it sounds even smarter...

(I am Polish native speaker)
Q   Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:17 pm GMT
<Most of them don't care about the original rules of English. They create their own>

Agreed

<I would say it sounds even smarter... >

That too :)
Guest   Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:51 pm GMT
<Most of them don't care about the original rules of English. They create their own>

In some cases American English grammar has diverged from British English grammar, but in other cases the Americans stick to the older (I don't think you can say original here) rules, for example, the greater use of the subjunctive.
Q   Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:00 pm GMT
<In some cases American English grammar has diverged from British English grammar>

The entire version of the language has diverged from English (British), or have that changed?

<In some cases American English grammar has diverged from British English grammar, but in other cases the Americans stick to the older>

what would be older then English (British)?

<I don't think you can say original here>

With all due respect; indeed he can, and righfully so. Do you live in that silly notion that grammar can be changed on the basis of once own personal likes and dislikes? Does not work like that in any langauge!
Q   Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:02 pm GMT
My understanding was that this is ment to be learners forum. Keep that in mind next time! The form ""Have you watched the new Clooney film?" is spot on!
Pash   Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:07 pm GMT
<My understanding was that this is ment to be learners forum. Keep that in mind next time! The form ""Have you watched the new Clooney film?" is spot on! >

"Have you seen..." sounds more natural.
User   Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:13 pm GMT
>> Did you see the new Clooney film" (when it's still in theatres) is incorrect. <<

>> Most of them don't care about the original rules of English <<

Um. Ok, so according to the "original rules of English" it should be rendered thusly:

"Hast þu that newe Clooney filme yseen?

So, I suppose that's what the Brits still say, because they stick to the *original* English?
User   Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:21 pm GMT
>> So, which of us is right? Are both "might could" and that AE use of the past simple, where BE speakers would use the present perfect, incorrect? <<

They are of course both correct, as they are valid forms in different dialects of English. If you compare it to the "original" form in Middle English, from which both British English dialects and North American English dialects are descended then the modern forms used in both countries are incorrect, and divergent from the original. On a side note, most Americans would actually use the present perfect in that situation anyway.
User   Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:28 pm GMT
>> So, which of us is right? Are both "might could" and that AE use of the past simple, where BE speakers would use the present perfect, incorrect? <<

They are of course both correct, as they are valid forms in different dialects of English. If you compare it to the "original" form in Middle English, from which both British English dialects and North American English dialects are descended then the modern forms used in both countries are incorrect, and divergent from the original.

>> With all due respect; indeed he can, and righfully so. Do you live in that silly notion that grammar can be changed on the basis of once own personal likes and dislikes? Does not work like that in any langauge! <<

Just because it is spoken in England does not mean that it is the "orginal". That would be as ridiculous as saying the Italian spoken in Rome in 2006 is the "original" Latin. English has diverged from earlier forms quite a bit over the years, and the English spoken in Britain has much more in common with the English spoken in North America, than it has from the English that they are both derived from. And secondly, based on the mistakes in your writing you are not a native speaker of English (or if you are which is highly unlikely, a poorly educated one), and with your atrocious grammar, you are certainly "changing the rules of English".

>> "Do you live in that silly notion"<<
What sort of expression is this, Q? Native speakers would never use this idiom.

"once own personal likes"
It's "ones" NOT "once". Obviously you cannot tell the difference between the "s" and "z" sounds in English. Therefore you cannot be a native speaker, as no native English speaker would make such a mistake--"ones" and "once" sound too different. You must be German, or from some other country where they devoice final consonants.
guest   Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:36 pm GMT
>>They are of course both correct, as they are valid forms in different dialects of English<<

It requires that the two forms follow established grammar.

>> "Do you live in that silly notion"<<

Whats wrong with that one? maybe someone else might be able to shed some light.

<<It's "ones" NOT "once". Obviously you cannot tell the difference between the "s" and "z" sounds in English. Therefore you cannot be a native speaker, as no native English speaker would make such a mistake--"ones" and "once" sound too different. You must be German, or from some other country where they devoice final consonants.<<

Maybe this person could be dyslectic? English differs in its written and spoken form.

>>atrocious grammar<<

His or her grammar is fairly good as well as far less atrocious then your own behaviour.

>>"Have you seen..." sounds more natural.<<

Sure does
User   Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:54 pm GMT
>> Maybe this person could be dyslectic? English differs in its written and spoken form. <<

Nope. Dyslexic people would simply transpose the positions of the letters in a word, not how the word *sounds*. Writing "ones" as "once" shows that the writer perceives them to be the same sound.

>> It requires that the two forms follow established grammar. <<
What sort of "established grammar"? Anyway this form would be mostly used in "spoken" English, not written English.
Guest   Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:57 pm GMT
I think that ignorant non-native speakers such as Q and JakubikF should leave this board. Why are you guys here? We don't need your bizarre notions polluting our board. Leave, now.
Travis   Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:12 pm GMT
>>"once own personal likes"
It's "ones" NOT "once". Obviously you cannot tell the difference between the "s" and "z" sounds in English. Therefore you cannot be a native speaker, as no native English speaker would make such a mistake--"ones" and "once" sound too different. You must be German, or from some other country where they devoice final consonants.<<

Actually, not necessarily. There are English dialects with full word-final devoicing in at least some positions and with certain phonemes such that word-final /s/ and /z/ can be both pronounced as [s], at least at times (as they may be pronounced differently in places such as before vowels). For instance, my dialect is one such dialect, and in it the important factor in differentiating pairs such as "once" and "ones" is not the realization of /s/ and /z/ but rather the length of the vowels in question, giving [wVnts] and [wV:nts] respectively in isolation.
Guest   Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:15 pm GMT
I still think Q is a non-native speaker.

Q: "what would be older then English (British)?"

He said "then" instead of "than". Would a native speaker make such a stupid mistake? I think that he must be mentally challenged if he is a native speaker.