Syllables in: fairy, ferry, and very

Roger   Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:12 am GMT
Random House Webster’s Dictionary shows two different patterns in how syllables are put in the aforementioned words. For example (I use the Webster’s transcription symbols):
1/ fairy - ['fer-E] or ['fe-rE].
2/ ferry - ['fer-E} or ['fe-rE]
3/ very - ['ver-E] or ['ve-rE]

In all of these, the syllable break occurs either after [r] or [e]. I ask native speakers of the American English language, how you guys pronounce those words? I’d like to spot the most common patterns. And are the 1/ and the 2/ homophones? Can you please use those Webster’s symbols in your examples?

Thanks in advance
Roger
Lazar   Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:28 am GMT
<< Can you please use those Webster’s symbols in your examples?>>

Well, I prefer to use X-SAMPA, but I'll comply. ;-)

<<I ask native speakers of the American English language, how you guys pronounce those words?>>

Here's how I pronounce them:

1) fairy - ['fer-i]
2) ferry - ['fe-ri]
3) very - ['ve-ri]

In X-SAMPA, those would be:

1) fairy - ["fE@`.i]
2) ferry - ["fE.r\i]
3) very - ["vE.r\i]

I'm from Massachusetts, and my pronunciation (using a different vowel in "fairy" than in "ferry" and "very") is a characteristic of the Northeast. My pronunciation is what can be termed "Mary-merry-marry" unmerged, because the words "Mary", "merry", and "marry" all sound different for us.

Outside of the Northeast, most North Americans pronounce "fairy, ferry, very" to rhyme, along with "Mary, merry, marry", "Cary, Kerry, carry", etc.
ESL   Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:34 am GMT
Lazar, if you don't mind recording them. (Mary-merry-marry) and (fairy, ferry, very). I want to hear a difference in pronunciation for these words.

Thanks.
Lazar   Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:39 am GMT
Sorry, I don't have any recording capabilities at the moment. :-(
Roger   Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:18 am GMT
Lazar,

Thanks for explaining the Northeast dialect phenomenon. So, fairy and ferry don’t rhyme for you. I imagine that there are probably a lot more other characteristics of the Northeast speech, different from the standard forms.

Roger
Uriel   Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:52 am GMT
Ferry and fairy are exactly the same for me, and both rhyme perfectly with very.
Buddhaheart   Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:44 pm GMT
Dividing the syllables after ‘e” (pronounce /e/, IPA symbol for the short “e”, same as the Webster’s dictionary symbol) in those words is a violation of English phonotactics. To be able to do that, the “e” would not be pronounced as a short “e” but a long one /i:/ (Webster’s ‘e” with a
macron).

The 1st word “fairy” could be divided after the “e” if you pronounce the “a” as the short “e” and the “i” as a schwa (a turned “e”, same as Webster’s): /`fe(schwa).ri/.

If yo pronounce the 1st two words as /`fer.i/, they are homonymous.
Lazar   Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:33 am GMT
Buddhaheart, I completely disagree with you.

<<Dividing the syllables after "e" (pronounce /e/, IPA symbol for the short “e”, same as the Webster’s dictionary symbol) in those words is a violation of English phonotactics.>>

No it isn't. To the contrary, your proposal would result in grievious violations of phonotactics. You see, the fundamental difference between "fairy" and "ferry" in a dialect like mine, that distinguishes them, is that the first syllable of "fairy" is allowable as a monosyllabic word ("fair"), while the first syllable of "ferry" is not. I cannot make a separate word "ferr" that has the sound of short E plus R; those two sounds simply can't go together in my dialect.

Let's see. "Fairy" is broken down into:

fair-y

But I can't break down "ferry" into:

ferr-y

Because the first syllable, "ferr", would be unutterable in my dialect. Thus I have to break the word down into:

fe-rry

Which is quite easily utterable by me.

The fundamental difference between those who distinguish them and those who don't isn't some little phonetic peculiarity of a schwa. It's the fact that my dialect allows sequences of /V(C).RV/ (where /V(C)/ represents a checked vowel), whereas their dialects do not allow those sequences, so they merge them into /V(R).V/ (where /V(R)/ represents a rhoticized vowel).

We distinguishers pronounce them:

"ferry" /"fE.ri/
"fairy" /"fE@`.i/

The non-distinguishers don't allow sequences like /E.ri/, so they merge them as:

"ferry" /"fE@`.i/
"fairy" /"fE@`.i/

You see, for a distinguishing speaker, it's impossible to divide "ferry" into two syllables that could each function as a separate word. There apply two different rules of phonotactics that cancel each other out. And I submit that the practice of ending word-medial syllables with a checked vowel, for example /"fE./, is nothing compared to the phonotactic atrocity of concocting an utterly unpronounceable syllable like /"fEr./.

I'll admit that British dictionary-makers like JC Wells do follow your pattern, but I assert that their syllabification is wrong and that it muddles the fundamental difference between distinguishers and non-distinguishers. If you follow their explanation, then the distinguishers simply have a bunch of extra phonemes which all magically disappear in the speech of the non-distinguishers. But my explanation posits a simple and fundamental reason for the mergers of "Mary-merry-marry", "serious-Sirius", and "hurry-furry". The explanation is that the non-distinguishers don't allow sequences of /V(C).rV/, so they merge them into /V(R).V/. Merriam-Webster ( http://m-w.com/ )agrees with me; although their transcription is a bit more simplistic, they agree with my basic principles by listing the pronunciation of "ferry" as /"fE.ri/ for distinguishers, and /"fEr.i/ for non-distinguishers.

You see, your theory holds that the distinguishers and the non-distinguishers pronounce "ferry" the same way, but that they each pronounce "fair, fairy" differently. I cannot overemphasize how much I disagree with this proposition. I assert that the complete opposite is true: the distinguishers and the non-distinguishers pronounce "fair, fairy" the same, but they have different pronunciations of "ferry". This theory is borne out by what I hear every day on television and in my daily life: I pronounce "fair, fairy" just like Midwesterners and Westerners do; it is my Northeastern pronunciation of "ferry", with its distinctively short and lax vowel, which is unique.

Compare this to the "hurry-furry" situation. It's quite evident that the non-distinguishers merge "hurry" into the /3`/ of "fur, furry"; whereas the non-distinguishers preserve a different vowel, that of "cut", in "hurry".

Distinguishers:

"fur, furry" use /3`/
"hurry" uses /V/

Non-distinguishers:

"fur, furry, hurry" all use /3`/

Your proposal awkwardly proposes that "ferry, fairy" merge in a completely opposite way, providing no fundamental reason for why these mergers occur; my proposal, on the other hand, seamlessly recognizes that a common process is occurring in both the "hurry, furry" and "ferry, fairy" situations.

I apologize if this post has turned into a rant (which it evidently has), but the thing is that I *absolutely, fundamentally* disagree with the commonly proposed phonemic analysis.
Lazar   Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:40 am GMT
A couple corrections:

"...your proposal would result in *grievous* violations of phonotactics."

And:

"...whereas the *distinguishers* preserve a different vowel, that of 'cut', in 'hurry'."
DX   Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:53 pm GMT
Lazar: What you wrote is very interesting. As a language learner, I've always been puzzled by the E+r sound.

I can pronounce
1/ fairy - ["fE@`.i] or ["fE.ri].
2/ ferry - ["fE@`.i} or ["fE.ri].

So I could merge them or preserve the distinction. The problem is, I can't pronounce words ending with [Er] (fair, there) without the schwa- sound (or at least some sort of schwa-like quality). And when I listen to native Americans I hear the schwa-like quality in their speech too, with words like there, fair, care. I don't hear it for example with when, then, west, belt etc. so it's just with words that end in r. So I can't really make a difference between [bEr] and [bE@´] for example, supposing you can say them differently.

But the impression that I get from many dictionaries is that people pronounce
ferry ["fE.ri],
fairy ["fE.ri] (non-distinguishers) or ["fE@´.i] (distinguishers)
fair ["fEr]

This just doesn't make sense to what I hear and when I try to pronounse them, even though I'm not a native, so of course, my ears could easily be wrong. But anyway, Lazar's "theory" makes a lot of sens to me if it holds.

So if I understood it correctly
distinguishers pronounce them:

"ferry" /"fE.ri/
"fairy" /"fE@`.i/
"fair" /fE@´/

And non-distinguishers:

"ferry" /"fE@`.i/
"fairy" /"fE@`.i/
"fair" /"fE@´/

How about I+r as in
spear it
spirit
here? How do you pronounce them?

I understand natives usually say they pronounce them with [Ir] or [ir], but I just can't help hearing the schwa like quality in words that end in I+r (here, we're) ( I don't hear that in "him", "bill", "wig" or "part", heart".

So I would pronounce them
[spI@` I?]
[spI.rIt]
[hI@`]

does this make any sense? Is it perhaps just some quality of [r] that makes me think I hear a schwa with E and I?
DX   Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:57 pm GMT
Oops, the ´ should be `in some of the pronunciations
Lazar   Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:13 pm GMT
<<So if I understood it correctly
distinguishers pronounce them:

"ferry" /"fE.ri/
"fairy" /"fE@`.i/
"fair" /fE@`/

And non-distinguishers:

"ferry" /"fE@`.i/
"fairy" /"fE@`.i/
"fair" /"fE@`/>>

Yes, you get the idea.

<<So I would pronounce them
[spI@` I?]
[spI.rIt]
[hI@`]>>

Exactly. ;-)

<<Is it perhaps just some quality of [r] that makes me think I hear a schwa with E and I?>>

Yeah; basically there's just this "R-ness" that blends with the vowel. I use [A@`], [E@`], [I@`], [O@`], [U@`] for these rhotic vowels.
Guest   Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:07 pm GMT
OVERVIEW
"Ferry" and "very" are always pronounced to rhyme. In some accents, "fairy" will be pronounced the same as "ferry", in other accents, differently.

MY PRONUNCIATION
I pronounce "ferry" and "fairy" DIFFERENTLY. "Ferry" has the "e" of "Dress". "Fairy" has the "e" of "fair" which is like the "a" of "face" but without the glide at the end.

OTHER ACCENTS
In other accents, "ferry" and "fairy" are both pronounced the same vowel. The quality of this vowel might be like "dress" or like "fair" depending on which part of the country you are from.

TRANSCRIPTION
I have no idea what the transcriptions in the original posting mean, or how they are supposed to differ from one another. (They seem to differ only in placement of the "r".) But I suspect that they should be interpreted as follows:

My pronunciation of "ferry" is the one transcribed as "fer-E", with the "r" in the preceding syllable, according to the old convention that, when a word is hyphenated, a syllable with a "short" vowel should be written "closed". Since the "e" in "ferry" is the short "e" of "dress", the "r" is put at the end of that syllable to "close" it. This is a typographical convention and has nothing to do with the true syllabication of the word. (The same convention is used in breaking up words into syllables to attach them to notes in songs.)

Lazar is of the opposite opinion, that "fer-E" is meant to indicate my pronunciation of "fairy", probably because the sequence of sounds spelled "air" is felt to be a seires of intimately connected sounds, an r-colored "a" followed by the "r".

It is hard to say which interpretation is right since the original poster did not provide any kind of description of what the signs meant. For that reason, I have tried to explain the pronunciatin of these words without the use of any symbols, with reference only to other words in the language.
Guest   Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:59 am GMT
WHETHER THERE IS A SCHWA IN "FAIRY"
The vowel of "fairy" (as distinct from the vowel of "ferry") is usually transcribed in IPA as episilon-schwa, or else e-schwa. This is in distinction to the vowel of "ferry", transcribed simply as "epsilon".

I am not sure whether this schwa is included to indicate the presence of a phonetically real off-glide, or else as a typographical convention by which the vowel may be given a separate symbol. In my own speech, I do not think I hear a true schwa there, as DX does. Rather, I agree with Lazar, that I hear an "R-ness that blends with the vowel". I take the transcription epsilon-schwa as merely a traditional designation of this r-coloring. For me, I would say that the quality of this vowel is monophthongal, somewhere between the "a" of "face" and the "e" of dress.

ON THE PRONUNCIATION OF "FAIRY/FERRY" IN ACCENTS WHICH MERGE THE TWO
In Lazar's earlier post, he suggests that, in accents which do NOT distinguish "ferry" from "fairy", the words should both be given the transcription episilon-schwa, just like the word "fairy" in accents which DO distinguish the two sounds.

I think this proposal is entirely reasonable, but it seems that traditionally pronunciation guides (such as Kenyon and Knott's) use simple epsilon in this case.

Whether this indicates a difference of pronunciation, or merely a difference of the symbol chosen to represent what is really the same sound both times, I do not know. But I suspect that the answer may differ from location to location.

On the talk page to the Wikipedia article, "IPA for English", there was recently a debate on whether the sound in "fairy" belonged to the same phoneme as "face" or as "dress". (On Wikipedia, the vowel of "fairy" is currently transcribed as simple epsilon.) Obviously, the question is valid only for people who merge the two vowels: for those who distinguish them, "ferry" has DRESS, and "fairy" has, probably, "face".

There was a great difference of opinion, some believing that "fairy" had unequivocally the same vowel as "dress", others that it was of an intermediate quality between "dress" and "face". This may, of course, be merely a difference of analysis and not of pronunciation: but I suspect that it is based on a real difference on the way the vowel is pronounced in different parts of the country.

For my part, it is very difficult for me to imagine a pronunciation of "fairy" (and therefore "fair") as well with the vowel of "dress". It would come out "ferr", a kind of clipped, bizarre sound. When I hear mergers from the midwest speak, I tend to hear "fairy" for "ferry", as Lazar's transcription suggests, and not "ferry" for "fairy".
Travis   Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:39 am GMT
>>ON THE PRONUNCIATION OF "FAIRY/FERRY" IN ACCENTS WHICH MERGE THE TWO
In Lazar's earlier post, he suggests that, in accents which do NOT distinguish "ferry" from "fairy", the words should both be given the transcription episilon-schwa, just like the word "fairy" in accents which DO distinguish the two sounds.

I think this proposal is entirely reasonable, but it seems that traditionally pronunciation guides (such as Kenyon and Knott's) use simple epsilon in this case.

Whether this indicates a difference of pronunciation, or merely a difference of the symbol chosen to represent what is really the same sound both times, I do not know. But I suspect that the answer may differ from location to location.

On the talk page to the Wikipedia article, "IPA for English", there was recently a debate on whether the sound in "fairy" belonged to the same phoneme as "face" or as "dress". (On Wikipedia, the vowel of "fairy" is currently transcribed as simple epsilon.) Obviously, the question is valid only for people who merge the two vowels: for those who distinguish them, "ferry" has DRESS, and "fairy" has, probably, "face".

There was a great difference of opinion, some believing that "fairy" had unequivocally the same vowel as "dress", others that it was of an intermediate quality between "dress" and "face". This may, of course, be merely a difference of analysis and not of pronunciation: but I suspect that it is based on a real difference on the way the vowel is pronounced in different parts of the country.

For my part, it is very difficult for me to imagine a pronunciation of "fairy" (and therefore "fair") as well with the vowel of "dress". It would come out "ferr", a kind of clipped, bizarre sound. When I hear mergers from the midwest speak, I tend to hear "fairy" for "ferry", as Lazar's transcription suggests, and not "ferry" for "fairy". <<

Normally General American is transcribed with [E] here, but at least here the vowel used is definitely higher than the [E] in "dress", only slightly lower than the [e] in "face" (that's a monophthong here), and not centralized unlike the [E] in "dress" here. Consequently, when transcribing my own dialect I generally use [e] for such unless I am trying to be really specific about it, where then I use [e_o] for such.