Thanks again everybody. I'm glad that RP preserves the unmerged forms before intervocalic r, because I have a CD copy of the OED, so I'll be able to look those up. I'll also use the dictionary.com pronunciation guide for other situations. I have a couple questions for Lazar (I find the Boston accent fascinating!) 1. Are you a)non-rhotic, or b) trap-bath splitting? 2. How prevalent would you say these features are in Boston (just a guess) 3. What are the geographical, age, social differences for these features, if any?
Reversing mergers
<<1. Are you a) non-rhotic,>>
No, I'm not, but my mother is, and a lot of my teachers at school have been.
<<b) trap-bath splitting?>>
I have the trap-bath split only in the word "aunt". It's pretty much universal here to have it in "aunt", whereas it's much rarer in the other words.
<<2. How prevalent would you say these features are in Boston (just a guess) 3. What are the geographical, age, social differences for these features, if any?>>
Non-rhoticism is very common in Boston, and in Worcester (the main city in my area); it's less common in the suburbs, where I'm from. (Further features like the trap-bath split and the horse-hoarse distinction are rarer than non-rhoticism, but still relatively common among middle-aged and older people who grew up in Boston or Worcester.) Non-rhoticism has working-class connotations here. (The stereotype is that affluent and "sophisticated" people would be more likely to be rhotic.)
As you can see, the dialectal situation here is very complex, and my speech has a lot of more subtle New England characteristics (pre-r distinctions, father-bother distinction), even though it lacks the most salient one (non-rhoticism).
No, I'm not, but my mother is, and a lot of my teachers at school have been.
<<b) trap-bath splitting?>>
I have the trap-bath split only in the word "aunt". It's pretty much universal here to have it in "aunt", whereas it's much rarer in the other words.
<<2. How prevalent would you say these features are in Boston (just a guess) 3. What are the geographical, age, social differences for these features, if any?>>
Non-rhoticism is very common in Boston, and in Worcester (the main city in my area); it's less common in the suburbs, where I'm from. (Further features like the trap-bath split and the horse-hoarse distinction are rarer than non-rhoticism, but still relatively common among middle-aged and older people who grew up in Boston or Worcester.) Non-rhoticism has working-class connotations here. (The stereotype is that affluent and "sophisticated" people would be more likely to be rhotic.)
As you can see, the dialectal situation here is very complex, and my speech has a lot of more subtle New England characteristics (pre-r distinctions, father-bother distinction), even though it lacks the most salient one (non-rhoticism).
Thanks for the clarification, Lazar. You saw through my opacity. The question is one of tense. I meant: in front of an intervocalic "r", words that had short o (as "horse" HAD) still have short "o" in RP (though "horse" DOESN'T).
I am puzzled by your distinctions btw sari-sorry-story.
Is it that: sari has the vowel of "START", "sorry" that of "horse" and story that of "hoarse"?
Also, a question: Would you consider yourself to have a "Boston" accent? With the acception of this sari-sorry-story business, it seems like you have the same accent as a lot of people from the northeast (like me, I'm from New York), but that you don't have a "Boston accent" (any more than I have a "New York accent").
Bye the bye, do you pronounce "boston" to rhyme with "costin'" or like "bah! (i)t's tin!" ?
I am puzzled by your distinctions btw sari-sorry-story.
Is it that: sari has the vowel of "START", "sorry" that of "horse" and story that of "hoarse"?
Also, a question: Would you consider yourself to have a "Boston" accent? With the acception of this sari-sorry-story business, it seems like you have the same accent as a lot of people from the northeast (like me, I'm from New York), but that you don't have a "Boston accent" (any more than I have a "New York accent").
Bye the bye, do you pronounce "boston" to rhyme with "costin'" or like "bah! (i)t's tin!" ?
<<Is it that: sari has the vowel of "START", "sorry" that of "horse" and story that of "hoarse"?>>
No. I'm horse-hoarse merged.
horse ["hO@`s]
hoarse ["hO@`s]
Let me just clarify that I am cot-caught merged:
cot ["kQ:t]
caught ["kQ:t]
But I have the father-bother distinction:
father ["fA:D@`]
bother ["bQ:D@`]
The above pattern is characteristic of Massachusetts.
So in answer to your question:
"sari" ["sA@`i] has the vowel of "start"
"sorry" ["sQ:ri] has the vowel of "cot" or "caught"
"story" ["stO@`i] has the vowel of "horse" or "hoarse"
<<Would you consider yourself to have a "Boston" accent? With the acception of this sari-sorry-story business, it seems like you have the same accent as a lot of people from the northeast (like me, I'm from New York), but that you don't have a "Boston accent" (any more than I have a "New York accent").>>
Well first of all, the traditional non-rhotic Massachusetts accent is just as common here in the Worcester area as in Boston, so I've never perceived it as specifically a "Boston" accent. I've grown up knowing it as a "Worcester accent" or just a "Massachusetts accent". But that's nitpicking. ;-)
Regardless, I think you do gloss over a big issue with the "sari-sorry-story business"; as said above, it's not just confined to words with "r". This affects pretty much all words like "cot", "caught", "bother", meaning that they all use the same, very open, but rounded, vowel, whereas "father" uses an unrounded vowel. So I think I do specifically have a "Massachusetts accent", albeit one watered down with General-American-style rhoticism. I'll admit that it's very similar to the New York accent, and there are a lot of features that the two accents share that could be considered "generalized Northeastern" features.
<<Bye the bye, do you pronounce "boston" to rhyme with "costin'" or like "bah! (i)t's tin!"?>>
I rhyme "Boston" with "costin". (But remember that in my accent "Boston" and "cost" use the same vowel as "cot" and "bother", which I don't think would be the case in your accent.)
I enjoy this kind of discussion. ;-)
No. I'm horse-hoarse merged.
horse ["hO@`s]
hoarse ["hO@`s]
Let me just clarify that I am cot-caught merged:
cot ["kQ:t]
caught ["kQ:t]
But I have the father-bother distinction:
father ["fA:D@`]
bother ["bQ:D@`]
The above pattern is characteristic of Massachusetts.
So in answer to your question:
"sari" ["sA@`i] has the vowel of "start"
"sorry" ["sQ:ri] has the vowel of "cot" or "caught"
"story" ["stO@`i] has the vowel of "horse" or "hoarse"
<<Would you consider yourself to have a "Boston" accent? With the acception of this sari-sorry-story business, it seems like you have the same accent as a lot of people from the northeast (like me, I'm from New York), but that you don't have a "Boston accent" (any more than I have a "New York accent").>>
Well first of all, the traditional non-rhotic Massachusetts accent is just as common here in the Worcester area as in Boston, so I've never perceived it as specifically a "Boston" accent. I've grown up knowing it as a "Worcester accent" or just a "Massachusetts accent". But that's nitpicking. ;-)
Regardless, I think you do gloss over a big issue with the "sari-sorry-story business"; as said above, it's not just confined to words with "r". This affects pretty much all words like "cot", "caught", "bother", meaning that they all use the same, very open, but rounded, vowel, whereas "father" uses an unrounded vowel. So I think I do specifically have a "Massachusetts accent", albeit one watered down with General-American-style rhoticism. I'll admit that it's very similar to the New York accent, and there are a lot of features that the two accents share that could be considered "generalized Northeastern" features.
<<Bye the bye, do you pronounce "boston" to rhyme with "costin'" or like "bah! (i)t's tin!"?>>
I rhyme "Boston" with "costin". (But remember that in my accent "Boston" and "cost" use the same vowel as "cot" and "bother", which I don't think would be the case in your accent.)
I enjoy this kind of discussion. ;-)
I remember when I was in Boston I was struck by how people said what sounded to me like "a lawt" for "a lot". In my accent I would say that palm and lot have merged but thought is distinct. Maybe in your accent lot and thought have merged but palm is distinct? Tom Lehrer (from Boston?) rhymes:
The Lord's our shepherd, says the psalm
But just in case we're gonna get a bomb.
I guess this wouldn't work for you? I might also mention that he rhymes:
Stories of tortures
Used by debauchers,
one of my favorite rhymes of all time, and, I suppose, related to the rhyming of "horse" with "loss" that you mentioned earlier.
The Lord's our shepherd, says the psalm
But just in case we're gonna get a bomb.
I guess this wouldn't work for you? I might also mention that he rhymes:
Stories of tortures
Used by debauchers,
one of my favorite rhymes of all time, and, I suppose, related to the rhyming of "horse" with "loss" that you mentioned earlier.
I remember when I was in Boston I was struck by how people said what sounded to me like "a lawt" for "a lot". In my accent I would say that palm and lot have merged but thought is distinct. Maybe in your accent lot and thought have merged but palm is distinct? Tom Lehrer (from Boston?) rhymes:
The Lord's our shepherd, says the psalm
But just in case we're gonna get a bomb.
I guess this wouldn't work for you? I might also mention that he rhymes:
Stories of tortures
Used by debauchers,
one of my favorite rhymes of all time, and, I suppose, related to the rhyming of "horse" with "loss" that you mentioned earlier.
The Lord's our shepherd, says the psalm
But just in case we're gonna get a bomb.
I guess this wouldn't work for you? I might also mention that he rhymes:
Stories of tortures
Used by debauchers,
one of my favorite rhymes of all time, and, I suppose, related to the rhyming of "horse" with "loss" that you mentioned earlier.
<<Maybe in your accent lot and thought have merged but palm is distinct?>>
Exactly. The psalm-bomb rhyme doesn't work for me.
<<I guess this wouldn't work for you?>>
No, "tortures-debauchers" don't rhyme for me. (And I should add that even for a lot of non-rhotic people here these wouldn't rhyme, because even a lot of the non-rhotic speakers are horse-hoarse merged.) But there are some middle-aged people I know (non-rhotic and horse-hoarse-unmerged) for whom those two words would rhyme.
Exactly. The psalm-bomb rhyme doesn't work for me.
<<I guess this wouldn't work for you?>>
No, "tortures-debauchers" don't rhyme for me. (And I should add that even for a lot of non-rhotic people here these wouldn't rhyme, because even a lot of the non-rhotic speakers are horse-hoarse merged.) But there are some middle-aged people I know (non-rhotic and horse-hoarse-unmerged) for whom those two words would rhyme.
Forgive my overuse of "even...a lot" above. I wrote the first half of the sentence, then I came back a bit later and wrote the second half without thinking. ;-)
Ah fascinating. (Sorry I posted twice -- technical errors.) I have also seen ascribed to Tom Lehrer:
Eating an orange
While making love
Makes for bizarre enj-
oyment thereof.
I can't devise any rhyme for "orange" that would work in your accent.
Also, are you the same as The Lazar on Wikipedia?
Eating an orange
While making love
Makes for bizarre enj-
oyment thereof.
I can't devise any rhyme for "orange" that would work in your accent.
Also, are you the same as The Lazar on Wikipedia?
<<I have also seen ascribed to Tom Lehrer:>>
Those rhymes are creative. ;-) They would all work in a classic New York accent.
<<I can't devise any rhyme for "orange" that would work in your accent.>>
Me neither.
<<Also, are you the same as The Lazar on Wikipedia?>>
That's an interesting thing. I was "The Lazar", but then I decided that the article "the" didn't really seem suitable in a name. So I looked, and I found that all recognizable versions of "Lazar" were already taken. But then I happened upon a thing in paleontology known as a "Lazarus taxon", so I changed my name to "Lazar Taxon" (as if "Taxon" were a surname). That's what I am now. ;-)
Those rhymes are creative. ;-) They would all work in a classic New York accent.
<<I can't devise any rhyme for "orange" that would work in your accent.>>
Me neither.
<<Also, are you the same as The Lazar on Wikipedia?>>
That's an interesting thing. I was "The Lazar", but then I decided that the article "the" didn't really seem suitable in a name. So I looked, and I found that all recognizable versions of "Lazar" were already taken. But then I happened upon a thing in paleontology known as a "Lazarus taxon", so I changed my name to "Lazar Taxon" (as if "Taxon" were a surname). That's what I am now. ;-)
On the Wikipedia:Pronunciation page there was formerly a section called "The Lazar's Proposal" which really puzzled me, since I took "the" with "proposal", leaving "Lazar's" in a kind of adjectival limbo.
I recently posted a lengthy disquisition there under the name "Gheuf" proposing a pronunciation key similar to what I take to have been yours, but with fewer symbols. I wonder what you think of it? (No need to reply here where I fear I have already dragged the discussion off topic.)
For anyone still tuned in for the original topic, a pop quiz. Where was the author of these lyrics from?
I'm a maid mad to marry
And would take with no qualm
Any Tom, Dick or Harry,
any Harry, Dick or Tom.
Mere alcohol
Doesn't thrill me at all.
I recently posted a lengthy disquisition there under the name "Gheuf" proposing a pronunciation key similar to what I take to have been yours, but with fewer symbols. I wonder what you think of it? (No need to reply here where I fear I have already dragged the discussion off topic.)
For anyone still tuned in for the original topic, a pop quiz. Where was the author of these lyrics from?
I'm a maid mad to marry
And would take with no qualm
Any Tom, Dick or Harry,
any Harry, Dick or Tom.
Mere alcohol
Doesn't thrill me at all.
Thanks Lazar, I always like to learn little bits of information about dialects, so that I can watch a show and be like "A New Yorker wouldn't pronounce that word with an {-tense vowel!" or something like that. It's interesting that you only have the BATH vowel in 'aunt' because I do to. It's hard for me to tell, but I think I might have got it sort of as an affectation from my parents. My mother watches a lot of British TV, and I can remember both of my parents trying to make sure I pronounced word "correctly" as a child. (Rhyming 'our' with 'hour' instead of 'are', for example.) Most other Canadians seem to pronounce it with TRAP, which to me always makes me think of the insect. I think you've mentioned on other threads that your mother has a wider set of BATH words. What are some of the more common ones?
Pronouncing "aunt" with a broad a is very common throughout North America. People just hear someone saying it like that, and they copy it.
<<It's interesting that you only have the BATH vowel in 'aunt' because I do too.>>
Yeah, I've heard "aunt" with broad A used by some non-New Englanders.
<<What are some of the more common ones?>>
Some of the ones that commonly have broad A in New England are "path", "bath", "laugh", "half", "after", "past", "last", and "ask". (But I've never heard anyone here use it in words like "dance", for example.)
Yeah, I've heard "aunt" with broad A used by some non-New Englanders.
<<What are some of the more common ones?>>
Some of the ones that commonly have broad A in New England are "path", "bath", "laugh", "half", "after", "past", "last", and "ask". (But I've never heard anyone here use it in words like "dance", for example.)