(sigh) ... distiNction...
''abbot'' and ''rabbit''
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<<Another post from the archives, I come to procrastinate^Wclear up a misunderstanding. Indeed, in Australian English word initial unstressed /I/ (particularly in closed syllables) are retained (optionally in open syllables, so I can say [In_j{:mr@b@l] or more likely [@n_j{:mr@b@l]; otoh, one only says [IntAej6], rarely [@ntAej6]).
Furthermore, /I/ in syllables closed by: /k g S Z tS dZ v/ are also immune. Thus, arctic=[a:4Ik]; English=[INglIS] sandwich=[s}:mwIdZ]; olive=[OlIv]. Actually, [I] tends to be generalised to these positions as well, so you often hear things like [h{mIk]=hammock. That's mostly how I talk...
The merger doesn't happen in the cliticised pronouns though, so "Kill him" and "Kill 'em" are still pronounced differently (respectively, /kIlIm/ and /kIl@m/), so you needn't worry about accidentally sending multiple people off to their doom because someone misunderstood you. Obviously an important distinction to retain!
And no---to the extent that a compound is transparent, an unstressed /I/ would not be reduced. Just like an unstressed /e/ wouldn't be reduced, a phoneme which normally can't survive in unstressed syllables.>>
Felix, I believe you mixed up X-SAMPA /{/ and /}/ a couple of times (I assume you don't actually have [}] in "sandwich"). /{/ is the low-mid front vowel (ash) while /}/ is the high central rounded vowel.
Anyway, that's interesting you can have [I] or [@] for the initial vowel in "innumberable." It's always [In:Mm@`@b5=] for me.
I found it interesting you don't have [k] in "arctic." For me that's always ["Ar\kt_hIk] (so flapping is impossible for me as a result of the preceding [k]). I also find it interesting you voice the final affricate in "sandwich." It's always [tS] for me. As for the other words, I always have [A5Iv] and [h{mIk].
Furthermore, /I/ in syllables closed by: /k g S Z tS dZ v/ are also immune. Thus, arctic=[a:4Ik]; English=[INglIS] sandwich=[s}:mwIdZ]; olive=[OlIv]. Actually, [I] tends to be generalised to these positions as well, so you often hear things like [h{mIk]=hammock. That's mostly how I talk...
The merger doesn't happen in the cliticised pronouns though, so "Kill him" and "Kill 'em" are still pronounced differently (respectively, /kIlIm/ and /kIl@m/), so you needn't worry about accidentally sending multiple people off to their doom because someone misunderstood you. Obviously an important distinction to retain!
And no---to the extent that a compound is transparent, an unstressed /I/ would not be reduced. Just like an unstressed /e/ wouldn't be reduced, a phoneme which normally can't survive in unstressed syllables.>>
Felix, I believe you mixed up X-SAMPA /{/ and /}/ a couple of times (I assume you don't actually have [}] in "sandwich"). /{/ is the low-mid front vowel (ash) while /}/ is the high central rounded vowel.
Anyway, that's interesting you can have [I] or [@] for the initial vowel in "innumberable." It's always [In:Mm@`@b5=] for me.
I found it interesting you don't have [k] in "arctic." For me that's always ["Ar\kt_hIk] (so flapping is impossible for me as a result of the preceding [k]). I also find it interesting you voice the final affricate in "sandwich." It's always [tS] for me. As for the other words, I always have [A5Iv] and [h{mIk].
Uriel: <<What about "Kill 'im" vs "Kill 'em"?>>
Oh yeah, that's what I was meaning. I do normally pronounce H's, so for "he's going" I might say [hIzgOu@n]. (Many other ways I could say that, but they all involve the H if I'm talking normally.)
Kirk: <<Felix, I believe you mixed up X-SAMPA /{/ and /}/ a couple of times (I assume you don't actually have [}] in "sandwich"). /{/ is the low-mid front vowel (ash) while /}/ is the high central rounded vowel.>>
Probably. My opinion is that X-Sampa is evil, broken and wrong for including those two characters. Mostly I use i\ and u\ for i-dashed and u-dashed; and & for ash (a la Kirsch) and &\ for sc oe ligature. This retains the computer-readable aspects of X-Sampa, but has the advantage of also being human-readable and human-writable.
As for the rest... It's my understanding the first C's in "arctic" and "Antarctica" and like words aren't pronounced, they're like the B in "debt". When the words were first borrowed into English, the had no C, then people put them in because the had them in Latin.
I tend to voice /tS/ to /dZ/ (or, I understand more accurately, deaspirate [tS_h] to [tS], but [tS] is one nomal pronounciation of /dZ/...) in unstressed syllables, so words like "sandwich", "ostrich" etc. are pronounce "sandwidge", "ostridge". Similarly after /s/ it tends to have the same result:--- "next year" is usually pronounced as one word, /neksdZI:/.
Oh yeah, that's what I was meaning. I do normally pronounce H's, so for "he's going" I might say [hIzgOu@n]. (Many other ways I could say that, but they all involve the H if I'm talking normally.)
Kirk: <<Felix, I believe you mixed up X-SAMPA /{/ and /}/ a couple of times (I assume you don't actually have [}] in "sandwich"). /{/ is the low-mid front vowel (ash) while /}/ is the high central rounded vowel.>>
Probably. My opinion is that X-Sampa is evil, broken and wrong for including those two characters. Mostly I use i\ and u\ for i-dashed and u-dashed; and & for ash (a la Kirsch) and &\ for sc oe ligature. This retains the computer-readable aspects of X-Sampa, but has the advantage of also being human-readable and human-writable.
As for the rest... It's my understanding the first C's in "arctic" and "Antarctica" and like words aren't pronounced, they're like the B in "debt". When the words were first borrowed into English, the had no C, then people put them in because the had them in Latin.
I tend to voice /tS/ to /dZ/ (or, I understand more accurately, deaspirate [tS_h] to [tS], but [tS] is one nomal pronounciation of /dZ/...) in unstressed syllables, so words like "sandwich", "ostrich" etc. are pronounce "sandwidge", "ostridge". Similarly after /s/ it tends to have the same result:--- "next year" is usually pronounced as one word, /neksdZI:/.
<<As for the rest... It's my understanding the first C's in "arctic" and "Antarctica" and like words aren't pronounced, they're like the B in "debt". When the words were first borrowed into English, the had no C, then people put them in because the had them in Latin.>>
Yup, must be a spelling pronunciation which has won out here.
<<I tend to voice /tS/ to /dZ/ (or, I understand more accurately, deaspirate [tS_h] to [tS], but [tS] is one nomal pronounciation of /dZ/...) in unstressed syllables, so words like "sandwich", "ostrich" etc. are pronounce "sandwidge", "ostridge". Similarly after /s/ it tends to have the same result:--- "next year" is usually pronounced as one word, /neksdZI:/.>>
Very interesting! :)
<<Probably. My opinion is that X-Sampa is evil, broken and wrong for including those two characters.>>
Yeah they can be confusing sometimes.
Yup, must be a spelling pronunciation which has won out here.
<<I tend to voice /tS/ to /dZ/ (or, I understand more accurately, deaspirate [tS_h] to [tS], but [tS] is one nomal pronounciation of /dZ/...) in unstressed syllables, so words like "sandwich", "ostrich" etc. are pronounce "sandwidge", "ostridge". Similarly after /s/ it tends to have the same result:--- "next year" is usually pronounced as one word, /neksdZI:/.>>
Very interesting! :)
<<Probably. My opinion is that X-Sampa is evil, broken and wrong for including those two characters.>>
Yeah they can be confusing sometimes.
Personally, I say all the C's in "arctic", but I SOMETIMES leave out the first C in "Antarctica". In that case it becomes "Annardica". (Which means bye-bye T's!) When I am being careful to say all letters, it becomes a whole different word: "Ant-Arc-Tica" and ALL letters get their full weight, plus minute pauses between syllables. (It's a pain!)
I do say the ch's in sandwich and ostrich as true ch's, but I've heard plenty of other Americans who say them much like you, Felix -- ostridge, sandwidge.
I do say the ch's in sandwich and ostrich as true ch's, but I've heard plenty of other Americans who say them much like you, Felix -- ostridge, sandwidge.
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