Words in -og

Josh Lalonde   Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:05 pm GMT
Among Americans who distinguish cot and caught, some words that originally were pronounced with cot are now with caught. I'm interested knowing in which ones. From what I can tell, 'dog' is almost always /dO:g/ for non c-c merged Americans, but other words in -og are variable. How does everyone pronounce these words:
hog
frog
fog
smog
log
bog
clog
cog
flog
jog
Prauge
slog

or any others in -og that you can think of. Thanks.
Jim   Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:09 am GMT
Do you mean "Prague ... and are you sure that it even belongs here? What you're looking for is a subset of what might be called the CLOTH words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set#Standard_lexical_sets_for_English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_the_low_back_vowels#Lot-cloth_split
Josh Lalonde   Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:14 am GMT
<<Do you mean "Prague ... and are you sure that it even belongs here?>>
Yes, sorry that was a typo. I pronounce it /prA:g/, but I'm c-c merged, so I was wondering if anyone pronounces it /prO:g/. I know in the UK it's pronounced /pr{g/.
Travis   Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:23 am GMT
I have [Q] in:

hog
frog
fog
smog
log
bot
flog

I have [a] in:

cog
jog

I have [A] or [Q] in:

clog
slog
Guest   Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:25 am GMT
I'm from Michigan. Here are my pronunciations:

"hog" /hAg/
/frAg/
/fAg/
/smAg/
/lAg/
/bag/
/clag/
/cAg/
/flag/
/dZag/
/prag/
/slag/
Guest   Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:28 am GMT
"clog" and "cog" were typos. They should be /klag/ and /kag/ and yes they rhyme.
Josh Lalonde   Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:08 am GMT
Travis, do you have a 3-way distinction between Q, A, and a for these words? Also are you from an NCVS city? It seems weird for someone to have both [a] and [A] as possible realizations of the LOT lexical set.
Jim   Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:37 am GMT
There're all [O] (except for "Prague": [pr\6:g]) i.e. the same phoneme as RP's /Q/ but raised in my Aussie accent for me i.e. no LOT-CLOTH split.
Travis   Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:55 am GMT
>>Travis, do you have a 3-way distinction between Q, A, and a for these words? Also are you from an NCVS city? It seems weird for someone to have both [a] and [A] as possible realizations of the LOT lexical set. <<

I do speak an NCVS-affected dialect, but the thing is that my /a/ phoneme (GA /A/) has [A] as an allophone before /L\/ (GA /l/), free variation between [A] and [Q] as allophones after /L\/, and has free variation between [a] and [A] as allophones before /R/ (GA /r\/) not before a fortis obstruent (where then it is always [V]) or after /R/. This is probably due to /L\/ and /R/ normally being purely dorsal sonorants in my dialect and consequently coloring /a/ before or after it more than anything else.
Guest   Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:15 am GMT
<<Travis, do you have a 3-way distinction between Q, A, and a for these words? Also are you from an NCVS city? It seems weird for someone to have both [a] and [A] as possible realizations of the LOT lexical set.>>

I have the NCVS and have [A] for the "thought" vowel and [a] for the "lot" vowel.
Josh Lalonde   Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:22 am GMT
Travis, where are you from? And Guest, I'm just curious, do you ever find that non-NCVS people confuse your PALM/LOT for their TRAP? (ie. you say 'stock' and they hear 'stack').
Travis   Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:38 am GMT
I'm from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Even though the other question was directed towards Guest, in my case I do have to say that I haven't had any real problems with other individuals confusing my PALM/LOT with their TRAP, but I have had individuals confuse my TRAP with their DRESS, and I will sometimes confuse other individuals' TRAP with my PALM/LOT or other individuals' PALM/LOT with my THOUGHT, in particular with individuals under the influence of the California Vowel Shift.
Uriel   Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:08 pm GMT
Damn! Now there's a lot-cloth split?
Guest   Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:20 pm GMT
Wow, confusing -_-. Why don't all you back-Easterners just become cot-caught merged like the rest of us? It simplifies things quite a bit.
Josh Lalonde   Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:52 pm GMT
<<Damn! Now there's a lot-cloth split?>>
Certain words that formerly had the LOT vowel have shifted to the THOUGHT vowel. It mostly only remains in the US. It occured before voiceless consonants in commonly spoken words. Many speakers also have it before -g, and in the words 'gone' and 'on'.