New quiz ;-)

Lazar   Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:39 pm GMT
I'm interested in what I term the "caught-sore" split, which is very common in North America, but often neglected in phonetics discussions. It is a split of the British [O] phoneme, in which "caught" and "sore" come to have different vowels. These split vowels can be manifested as [O] and [Q], or [o] and [O] as in Travis' case. Anyway, here's the quiz:

How would you transcribe the vowel you use in:
sore
thesaurus
dinosaur
centaur
Taurus
saurian
tyrannosaurus
aura
Laura
Lauren
Lawrence
Mauritania

If you don't know IPA, then tell me if you pronounce each of those words with an "or" or an "awr" sound, or if "or" and "awr" sound the same to you.
Lazar   Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:45 pm GMT
<<If you don't know IPA>>

I meant, "If you don't know SAMPA", of course.
Al   Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:53 pm GMT
I have the same /Or/ sound in all of those words.
Al   Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:55 pm GMT
and I'm from New York.
Guest   Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:59 pm GMT
JHJ   Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:03 pm GMT
(northern England)

sore - [o@]
thesaurus - [O:]
dinosaur - [O:]
centaur - [O:]
Taurus - [O:]
saurian - [O:]
tyrannosaurus - [O:]
aura - [O:]
Laura - [O:]
Lauren - [Q]
Lawrence - [Q]
Mauritania - [O:]

However, "or" words like "for" have [O:] too.
Travis   Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:04 pm GMT
These for me are:

"sore" : /sor/ -> [so:r\]
"thesaurus" : /TE"sorIs/ -> [TE."so:.r\Is]
"dinosaur" : /"daIn@sor/ -> ["da:I~.n@.sor\]
"centaur" : /"sEntor/ -> ["sE~n.tor\]
"Taurus" ; /"torIs/ -> ["t_ho:.r\Is]
"saurian" : /"soriIn/ -> ["so:.r\iI~n]
"tyrannosaurus" : /taIr{n@"sorIs/ -> [t_h@I.r\{~.n@."so:.r\Is]
"aura" : /"or@/ -> ["o:.r\@]
"Laura" ; /"lor@/ -> ["5o:.r\@]
"Lauren" : /"lorIn/ ->["5o:.r\I~n]
"Lawrence" : /"lorIns/ -> ["5o:.r\I~ns]
"Mauritania" : /morI"teni@/ -> [mo.r\I."t_he~:.ni@] or [mo.r\I."t_he~:.J@]
Richard   Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:09 pm GMT
For me, ''caught'' and ''sore'' have different vowels (/kAt/ and /sOr/), but then I have the cot-caught merger, so perhaps I don't count.
Lazar   Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:11 pm GMT
It's interesting that you use [o] for all those words, since you said you used [O] for "Lawrie" and "rawr". So I assume that [Or] must be a *very* rare sequence for you?

For me, the words are:
sore - [sOr]
thesaurus - [T@sOr@s]
dinosaur - [daIn@sOr]
centaur - [sEntOr]
Taurus - [tOr@s]
saurian - [sOri@n]
tyrannosaurus - [t@r{n@sOr@s]
aura - [Qr@]
Laura - [lQr@]
Lauren - [lQr@n]
Lawrence - [lQr@ns]
Mauritania - [mQrIteIni@]

The sequence [Qr] can't occur word-finally for me, so "dinosaur" and "centaur" use [Or]. All other instances of "saur" and "taur", by analogy, use [O], even if they are word-medial and would normally take [Q]. The rest of the words (aura, Laura, Lauren, Lawrence, Mauritania) all use [Q] for me.
Lazar   Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:15 pm GMT
My last post was directed to Travis.

Moving on to Richard:

<<For me, ''caught'' and ''sore'' have different vowels (/kAt/ and /sOr/), but then I have the cot-caught merger, so perhaps I don't count.>>

It's interesting that you bring up the cot-caught merger. You have the more common, Western US version of the merger, in which both words are merged to [A]. In your case, then yes, the caught-sore split would be subsumed in the greater cot-caught merger.

I am also cot-caught merged, but I have the New England version, in which both words use a rounded vowel. So for me, the caught-sore split does not flow directly from the cot-caught merger, but is rather a separate phenomenon.

Damn, English vowels can get complicated. ;-)
Kirk   Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:54 pm GMT
Lazar, all those words you listed I pronounce with [O], which is probably not a big surprise to you considering my dialect (Western US-Californian). As with Richard, I also have /kAt/ for "cot-caught" and /O/ for "sore."
Guest   Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:19 pm GMT
I pronounced them all as 'or' except Mauritania, which I pronouce as 'ow'
Travis   Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:38 pm GMT
Yes, for me, [Or\] is extremely rare, and those are practically the sole two cases that I can think of such, and they themselves are marginal at best, one being a name and one being an interjection or onomotopea. The vast majority of words that have [Or\] in most other NAE dialects have [or\] instead in my dialect. Basically, it seems like the merger of /Or/ and /or/ in my dialect happened to favor /or/, realized as [or\] or [o:r\], over /Or/, unlike at least most NAE dialects spoken in the US today which have the "horse"-"hoarse" merger, resulting in this particular situation.
Joe   Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:19 pm GMT
I'm from Eastern New England and for me:

sore - /sor/
thesaurus - /T@sOr@s/
dinosaur - /daIn@sOr/
centaur - /sEntOr/
Taurus - /tOr@s/
saurian - /sOri@n/
tyrannosaurus - /t@r{n@sOr@s/
aura - /Qr@/
Laura - /lQr@/
Lauren - /lQr@n/
Lawrence - /lQr@ns/
Mauritania - /mQrIteIni@/

For me, ''dinosaur'' has the vowel in ''horse'', ''sore'' has the vowel in ''hoarse'' and ''Lauren'' has the vowel in ''cot-caught''.
Uriel   Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:06 am GMT
I can't imagine "caught" and "sore" having the same vowel, so here goes:

sore (or)
thesaurus variable for me (or) or (ar)
dinosaur (or)
centaur (awr)
Taurus (awr), unless it's the car, and then I say (or) -- don't know why!
saurian (or) -- although I don't think I've ever *actually* said this word!
tyrannosaurus (or)
aura variable again, (ahr) or (or)
Laura (or)
Lauren (or)
Lawrence (or)
Mauritania (or)