American English a Creole language?

Travis   Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:46 pm GMT
Mxsmanic, you mean that the differences between *literary* North American English and English English are very small, which they most definitely are. In writing, the differences between literary NAE and English English are little more than minor differences in a number of spellings, a relatively small number of word usage differences, and some minor grammatical differences, such as the subjunctive being used far more in literary NAE than English English. That said, though, the differences between NAE and English English are far more pronounced in speech than they are in writing. For example, spoken NAE modals have been significantly revamped, with many older present-preterites, in most cases, being effectively replaced with periphrasic constructions, along with some old present-preterites gaining inflections for perfect aspect. I'm not going to go further into this, but the main fact is that one should not assume closeness of literary "standard" languages equates closeness of the everyday spoken languages.
Travis   Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:00 pm GMT
Well, Sander, that depends on what part of the US one is in. At least around here, German last names are extremely common, and very likely the most common kind of last name here. However, one note is that the pronunciations of German last names are usually anglicized, to varying degrees, to the point that very many individuals do not necessarily know how to really pronounce their *own* last names. Spelling-wise, the primary sort of anglicization that is common is to simply remove any umlauts, and in many cases place "e"s after the formerly umlauted letters (but not always). Sometimes, though, German last names have been *translated* to their English counterparts, such as making "Müller" into "Miller", and "Schmidt" into "Smith". Around here, there apparently historically was the custom of writing German last names as is, but pronouncing them as if they were their English equivalents, but this appears to died out, and now anglicized pronunciations of German last names, rather than translated versions of them, appear to be preferred in speech.
Lazar   Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:18 pm GMT
<<Around here, there apparently historically was the custom of writing German last names as is, but pronouncing them as if they were their English equivalents, but this appears to died out, and now anglicized pronunciations of German last names, rather than translated versions of them, appear to be preferred in speech.>>

That's interesting, because we have a Red Sox player named Bill Mueller, and his name is pronounced "Miller".
Sander   Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:35 pm GMT
Travis,

Is your name pronounce "Bee (insect) -man (the man) or the German way?
Adam   Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:35 pm GMT
American English is partly an artificial language.
Adam   Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:45 pm GMT
"American English is not an exception either. Just ask yourself why the Americans are charmed by the British accent and why the Brits dislike the American English"

That's true that. Most Brits think the American accent is ugly, whereas the Americans like the accents of the British.

The same is also true of Australia. We hate their accent, but they like ours.

People who don't speak English English as a native language might not know this.
Travis   Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:50 pm GMT
Sander, well, not quite either. The anglicized pronunciation I generally use is pretty much English "bee" + the English *suffix* "man" (which is not pronounced like the English word "man", but rather more like /mIn/ -> [mI~n]). Of course, that is nowhere close to the way such'd be pronounced if one did a German spelling pronunciation of it, which may or may not be the way it was actually pronounced originally.
Adam   Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:51 pm GMT
"One study which was done by a team of psychologists showed that American police officers went easier on traffic violators who talked with British accents and were more likely to let them off with a warning rather than give them a ticket. "

Or maybe the police officers are just scared that the Brits they pull over are drunk, and studies show that drunk Brits are a force to be reckoned with.


Just kidding.
Ryan   Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:22 am GMT
"That's true that. Most Brits think the American accent is ugly, whereas the Americans like the accents of the British."

The popular British accent where you say "fink" instead of "think" sounds absolutely silly, though. You Brits are doing your absolute best to ruin your "accentual advantage."
Travis   Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:41 am GMT
I have to agree that I would much prefer stopping (as /t/), affricating (as /tT/), or sibilantizing (as /s/) /T/ over labializing it as /f/ myself, just from a personal preferance standpoint. Of course, I'm very likely to be biased on this one, considering that my dialect will in many cases stop, affricate, or sibilantize it, but never labializes it, but that's another story.
Ved   Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:28 am GMT
It is really astonishing how many Europeans think Europe is the centre of the world. Well, you know what? It isn't. Who the bleep cares what accents are liked and not liked in Europe.

In terms of English, its geographical centre has shifted. And guess what: it's on this continent now, at least it is in first-language terms. And although English is increasingly becoming the property of the whole world, let us not forget that most EFL speakers these days are modelling their English on NAm English. Similarly, the geographical centres of Portuguese and Spanish are also in America now. It is only logical that American models will be emulated by FL speakers worldwide.

This continent is economically and scientifically the most developed part of the world. It is also the most influential in terms of social trends. Europeans, it's time you accepted the simple fact that Europe is no longer the most important continent there is. Sorry.
Kirk   Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:03 am GMT
Oh, Travis, is your last name German? I wasn't sure what "Bemann" was or how I would pronounce it, as I'm not familiar with it, but ["bimæn] or ["bimIn] woulda been my guesses.
Travis   Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:18 am GMT
Kirk, yeah, my last name's German. I normally pronounce it /"bimIn/ -> ["bi~:.mI~n], even though I think in German it should be more like /bE"man/ -> [bE."man] or [b@."man].

Ved, well, I wouldn't say that the Americas, or even specifically North America, are/is in particular *the* "economically and scientifically" "most developed part of the world", but yes, I myself am tired of Brits who think that they somehow "own" the English language, or that their forms are somehow normative for English *as a whole*. Of course, though, I'm the sort who goes further and thinks that informal spoken NAE forms should be taught as the basis for the *spoken* language taught as a foreign language, alongside the existing literary language that is generally taught, even though that would probably annoy much of the rest of the "English-speaking world" to no end.
Johnathan Mark   Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:35 pm GMT
Downtown is referred to as such because most towns and cities in the US (and Canada, too) begin address numbering with the lowest numbers in the city center, and numbered streets will usually have low numbers. The song "Uptown Girl" refers to a girl who lives far from the city center, i.e., in the wealthy part of town, where the street and house numbers are high.
Adam   Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:06 pm GMT
The English spoken by African Americans in the US is a creole.