Windy-Wendy merger?

Lazar   Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:01 am GMT
<<I also pronounce "length" as [lINT] (linkth), and "strength" as [str\INT] (stringth). Is this a related phenomenon? I've noticed that others say [leNT] and [str\eNt] instead.>>

That's interesting - I was under the impression that the pen-pin merger didn't occur before [N]. (Btw, I pronounce those ["leINT] and ["str\eINT].) How do you pronounce words like "sang, rang"?
Shatnerian   Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:13 am GMT
I think I pronounce "length" and "strength" roughly the same as Lazar, but I don't think I add the [I]. I also pronounce the "th" sound. If am reading X-SAMPA properly, "Sang" and "rang" come out as sEng and rEng.
zzz   Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:39 am GMT
>> How do you pronounce words like "sang, rang"? <<

[seN] and [r\eN].
Josh Lalonde   Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:22 pm GMT
Back to Canadian raising, I've noticed that it applies in the word 'southern' despite the voiced fricative. This is because 'south' has a voiceless fricative [s@UT], and southern is derived from it, so [s@UD@`n]. I've also heard it pronounced [sVD@`n], but I think this is a more American pronunciation borrowed into Canadian English.
Gabriel   Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:04 pm GMT
<<This is because 'south' has a voiceless fricative [s@UT], and southern is derived from it, so [s@UD@`n]. I've also heard it pronounced [sVD@`n], but I think this is a more American pronunciation borrowed into Canadian English.>>

/"sVD@n/ is also the prevalent (only?) form in RP. I don't think I've ever heard /"saUD@n/ (raised or not) from a native speaker, so Josh Lalonde's pronunciation is very interesting. Does anybody else pronounce it like that?
Guest   Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:55 pm GMT
<< >> How do you pronounce words like "sang, rang"? <<

[seN] and [r\eN]>>

I think these are reflective of ae-tensing (should be a ligature there). In Canadian English, we have what is called the continuous system of ae-tensing. The vowel /{/ before nasals is often pronounced [e@] or [e]. My own pronunciation is closer to [{_r] before [N], so I have [s{_rN] and [r\{_rN]. Just for the record, length is [lENT] and strength is [St_SP\ENT] for me (wow, that last one looks ugly in transcription).
Lazar   Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:05 pm GMT
I've actually never heard "southern" with /aU/. I pronounce it ["sVD@`n].
Guest   Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:14 am GMT
>> I've actually never heard "southern" with /aU/. I pronounce it ["sVD@`n]. <<


According to the Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West/Central Canadian English
According to
"In Central Ontario (especially the region around Toronto), [ð] is often pronounced as [d]. Sometimes (particularly in North York, an area of Toronto, [ð] is elided altogether, resulting in "Do you want this one er'iss one?" ****The word southern is often pronounced with [aʊ]****. In the regional area north of York and south of Parry Sound, notably among those who were born in these bedroom communities (Barrie, Vaughan, Orillia, Bradford, Newmarket) as opposed to those who moved there to commute, the cutting down of syllables is often heard, e.g. "probably" is reduced to "prolly", or "probly" when used as a response."
zzz   Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:47 am GMT
>> The vowel /{/ before nasals is often pronounced [e@] or [e].<<

Interestingly enough, I think it only happens before velar nasals and /g/ for me.

Thus: /b{N/ -> [beN], and "bag" /bæg/ -> something like [beg]; but ban /bæn/ = [bæn]. I think that my /æ/ in "ban" and "bat" are the same. The CVS is much less widespread here, so the /æ/ in "bat" is rarely retracted to /a/.
Josh Lalonde   Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:42 pm GMT
<<Interestingly enough, I think it only happens before velar nasals and /g/ for me.

Thus: /b{N/ -> [beN], and "bag" /bæg/ -> something like [beg]; but ban /bæn/ = [bæn]. I think that my /æ/ in "ban" and "bat" are the same. The CVS is much less widespread here, so the /æ/ in "bat" is rarely retracted to /a/.>>

Where are you from, zzz? I was under the impression that ae-tensing was fairly uniform across Canada. Yes, my /{/ is fairly retracted, but I don't think it should be written as [a], because there are other accents (Scottish, Jamaican, Northern English) that have a considerably more retracted /{/ than I do, and they are usually written [a]. I don't have any of the other CVS features, and I can't really say that I've noticed them here in Ottawa.
My /{/ before /g/ is also raised, but not as high as [e]. I think my spectrum goes something like this:

/{N/ is [EN]
/{n/, /{m/ are [{_r]
/{g/ is [{g]
/{/ (before other consonants) is [{_o]

<<the cutting down of syllables is often heard, e.g. "probably" is reduced to "prolly", or "probly" when used as a response.">>

Does the pronunciation [prAbli] not occur elsewhere? This is pretty much universal in casual speech here, even among older, more conservative speakers. I've heard [prAli] too, but this is a lot less common.
Josh Lalonde   Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:02 pm GMT
I thought I would revive this thread, before it sinks slowly down the page into oblivion. I checked my brother's pronunciation of 'southern' and it's basically the same as mine at [sEUD@`n]. I found another word with this phenomenon too: housing [hEUzIN]. This of course comes from 'house' [hEUs], and the vowel stays the same even though the environment that brings out that allophone is gone. Interesting...I'll see if I can think of any minimal pairs from Canadian raising (other than the ones before [4]). Maybe I have a new phoneme /EU/? Travis, how do you pronounce 'southern' and 'housing'?
zzz   Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:18 pm GMT
>> Maybe I have a new phoneme /EU/? Travis, how do you pronounce 'southern' and 'housing'? <<

Well, he's from Wisconsin, so I think he would probably pronounce Southern as /sVDr=n/ (although he has weird rhotics and stuff) rather than /saUDr=n/, and he would probably not raise the diphthong in "house" [haUs].
Travis   Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:24 pm GMT
I myself pronounce "southern" as ["sV:DR=~:n] and the noun "house" as ["h6Us]; I pronounce the verb "house", in contrast, as ["ha:Us]. However, in rather informal speech I may sporadically pronounce the noun "house" in a far more raised fashion as ["hVUs] or ["h7Us].
zzz   Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:40 pm GMT
>> I pronounce the verb "house", in contrast, as ["ha:Us] <<

Is that just because of your final consonant devoicing?
RedFox   Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:52 pm GMT
<<I found another word with this phenomenon too: housing [hEUzIN]. This of course comes from 'house' [hEUs]>>

I think I have the same phenomenon as you. "house" is [hEUs] and "housing" is [hEUsIn]. Contrast "browsing" which is [br{:zIn] for me.