About Catalan...

Galego   Thu May 24, 2007 9:32 pm GMT
You put a lot of words in my mouth and of course most of them are pure speculation, although I can see you've drop some of your insults from your previous poster. Again I could not care less. I've expressed my impressions in Barcelona in a straighthforward way - not bad for a galego. You don't like them? Fine! You are missing a chance to understand what makes, you people, often so irritating.

I've never mention a "provincial place" referring to Barcelona or Catalunya. Actually in some aspects Madrid is more provincial than Barcelona.

I have nothing against the Catalan language, which I can understand and can read easily (I can even sing "baixan de la font del gat" - not big deal there or almost pronounce " Setze jutges d'un jutjat mengen fetge d´un penjat") and consider normal that Catalans speak Catalan or whatever they wish. It's not different in my neck of the woods. Big deal! One of the worst mistakes Spanish governments have made in the past is to impose Castilian, everywhere... and we are paying for it.

It doesn't surprise me that your first language is Catalan but you are misrepresenting reality when you state that "The state in which I lived decided I had to become fluent in Spanish". Spanish has been for a long time a first or second language - depending where you go - in your area. It would be debatable how much this was convenient and how much was imposition.

You are posturing when you say "I learnt my first words of Castilian Spanish when I was 6 years old" since a huge percentage of words are identical in Castilian and Catalan and Castilian is part of the life of Catalans along with Catalan whether you are 2 or 80 years old. What? You never watch TVE before you were 3 years old? Very strange, indeed!

Franco brought you... and pretty much everybody else, back back to the Darkest Ages - with the help, for example, of most of the Catalan catholic hierarchy and quite a few Catalan families. There were plenty of fascist in your area too.

Too many Catalans have turn their language into a political issue when it should just be a language for people to communicate (duh!). I'll concede that you do not started this trend but Catalan is not just - yet - such a means of communication but way too often a political statement.

And finally some Catalans manage to irritate the heck of us with all those games you play. My only purpose was to expose those games and maybe, just maybe, make you think about yourself.

Salut!
Guest   Thu May 24, 2007 9:57 pm GMT
You are right Galego. Some of them (not all of them) are very radical with their language. If you remember them, that they are radical, automatically you are a fascist centralist.

Well, I think there are medium positions for both sides,
Galego   Thu May 24, 2007 10:26 pm GMT
Guest,

Well... I entered this thread to give a second opinion after reading some posts that were playing again and again the same games and deforming reality.

I'm afraid is mostly about politics ... for both sides: the Spanish right and the Catalan nationalist.

Saludos!
Sergio   Thu May 24, 2007 10:35 pm GMT
Hi Galego,

I have never had the chance to listen some Galician. Since some Portuguese phonetic aspects remaind me of some Catalan sounds, I would like to know if you have heard something similar between Galician and Catalan.


Do you know where can I listen Galician in internet?
Galego   Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm GMT
Sergio, for your purpose this is a good start:

http://www.agal-gz.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=printpage&artid=14

For Radio:

http://www.internetradioindex.com/I-probe/ip_radio_5g.html

Modern Portuguese and Galician sound quite different these days. When I go to Portugal I always pay attention to their "r" sound. It's quite original, at least in the North. Don't no much about the South.
JGreco   Fri May 25, 2007 3:16 am GMT
From what I've heard on the telephone when I hear my mom speak to some of her relatives in the South (the Algarve), Their "r's" are even more gluttural reminding me of the Madrileno pronunciation of the letter "j".
From Catalonia   Fri May 25, 2007 5:35 am GMT
Please re-read your messages before reading mine. The ones where you leave it clear how you feel about Catalonia (I spent a very, very, long year in Barcelona) and where you leave your knowledge of Catalan clear (never heard "mèrci"). Also the ones where you level us all (tell them this and that and they'll be really happy). Your whole message is patronising and you leave out as much as doesn't interest you discussing at all. Aren't we all like that, especially those who "leave out" political issues making a big political issue of what they say.

I do not put many words in your mouth. I leave many out and I just complete some of your thoughts since they are quite usual around me.

You may feel or not Castilian Spanish is the best thing ever that happened to us. You may just feel that this is the way things are right now and that is how they should be. We all have a right to change our present and our future.

Spanish is an international language of communication. In my town (with over 95% native Catalan speakers and well over 50.000 people) it is a clear imposition, no matter how you look at it. In the past few years quite a few thousand residents from other non-Spanish countries have settled in my home town. What should they learn first to communicate in the town they have chosen? Catalan, of course but in a lot of the State Nationalist Press they will tell you they need to learn Spanish should they decide to move elsewhere. Meanwhile they can help the Centuries Long State Plan to castillanise those parts which still aren't. It's all too obvious.

Of course Catalan has many words which are the same in Spanish and also in most Romance languages. It's quite a weak comment on your behalf. Then I learnt my first words they were all Catalan and I never thought they could also be Galician, Portuguese, Italian, French or Spanish. It's like saying the Brits learn German words from the start.

Speaking a Romance language makes it easier to learn another but that has nothing to do with the issue of monolingualism.

Speaking about Catalan, Castilian, Spanish, French or English collaborationists with the Franco regime there were many more outside Catalonia then in Catalonia itself. You know this only too well and are just implying that it's all our fault after all. I'm not putting words into your mouth but I try to be intelligent enough to be able to analyse what you say. You may not want to say it but you say it nevertheless.

Franco was obviously Galician but I will not go as far as making a joke on the many Galicians who suffered for that matter. Too many of them (and Catalans and Castlians, Andalusians, Castilian and others) fled for that matter. Antonio Machado died in France as did many Catalans. The difference is Antonio Machado was a monolingual from birth although he became a French professor later on his life. He led a normal life in a normal State. One that was tailored to his measurements.

Catalan became a political issue the day another language was imposed in 1714. It's not my fault at all. Castilian is also a political issue in Puerto Rico or even in Florida, California or New York. Castilian isn't a political issue in Great Britain, Maine or Australia. It's easy to understand. Languages are for communication until somebody decides another language must be the means of communication in a given land.

I've though a lot about "ourselves" the Catalans. Being born a Catalan makes you "slightly aware of yourself" from the very start. It happens in other parts of Spain and the world and that doesn't make us happier. I took my time to read you and to answer you. There isn't a single insult in my answers, just plain reading and conclusions.

By the way, should Catalonia ever become independent I'm sure many, many Catalans (probably all of them) would still learn Spanish as a second language and also English right now. As you say languages are for communication. I'm absolutely for international communication and even more so if it's for our eternal neighbours many of whom have chosen Catalonia as their homeland.

I'm still unable to represent the whole of Spain with my voice on a nationwide broadcast. My accent is considered foreign in the Spain I live, even if my grammar is absolutely correct. All political analysts know that the best Spaniard with a strong Catalan accent will never be chosen president of Spain. It's happened before and it'll happen again. The first thing is to lose your language and the second is to lose your accent.
Guest   Fri May 25, 2007 6:05 am GMT
"From Catalonia," as a third party to this discussion, I must say that your English is outstanding. I'm glad your writing in it so I am able to follow along with this debate.

A quick question, in Spain, how many people speak Catalan as a native tongue, versus Castilian, Galician, and the other languages? Thanks.
From Catalonia   Fri May 25, 2007 7:11 am GMT
Dear Guest,

There is an official linguist census in territories considered "bilingual" by the Spanish law. They are carried out every four years. I'm sure they are in the Internet.

I have not time to check exact figures right now but I do remember, more or less. Roughly speaking about 40% of the Spanish population lives in areas where there are two official languages. Spanish (Castilian) is the official language of the state but the other languages are also official in their territories. Therefore 60% lives in monolingual Spain and 40% in bilingual Spain. These are the facts and makes Spain a multi-linguistic and multi-cultural State from the very start.

The law says that school children have to learn both languages when they live in bilingual territories. Important studies state that the people from these regions are usually the most gifted when learning a 3rd language. Many Castilian-Spanish interpreters in Brussels are from bilingual territories. There is a current joke in Brussels and Strasbourg (I know these two cities quite well), which states that Catalan is the language of the interpreters' offices whilst Spanish is heard in the interpretation booths.

Both Galego and I are from bilingual territories (in his case Galego, a language close to Portuguese in so many ways, and myself a Catalan.) I find it quite usual to find fluent English speakers in both these territories. The Galician have always been great international travellers as well (very often to their political distaste as ours.)

Official languages in Spain are, therefore: Castellano (Spanish), Catalan, Gallego and Basque. Occitan -closely related to Catalan- is also official in a Spanish Catalan valley (Val d'Aran). It's the only other "historic" language in our territory. Analysts say that 90% of the population spoke Catalan in 1930, many of these were still monolingual Catalan-speakers at that time and up to the 1950s. My grand-father certainly still is. I've never heard a word of Spanish in his mouth and very few in my parents. That doesn't mean he doesn't understand the Castilian language.

In the 1940s many hundreds of thousands Spanish speakers from other parts of Spain began to flood into Catalonia, especially the Barcelona area. Heavy immigration carried on until the mid-1970s. Franco died in 1975. In the past 10 years Catalonia has also received major immigration from other third world countries since Spain is now felt as a rich first world country in Europe. Catalonia was considered to be the most important industrialised region at that time (as a matter of fact most bilingual regions except for Galicia also were heavily industrialised in the late 19th century).

Catalan is spoken, for historic reasons, in a small bit of Southern France near the Spanish border, historically part of Catalonia (around Perpinyà, Perpignan). Due to French linguistic policies Catalan is heavily menaced in this area. Over 75% of the population of Catalonia is fluent in Catalan (60% as a first native language and the other 15% would be fluent second language speakers.) Well over 90% of the population understands Catalan very well. Over 95% of the population is fluent in Castilian Spanish (1st language speakers would be around 40%).

In the Region of Valencia there are aproximately 60% Catalan speakers (known as Valencian locally) and over 75% in the Balearic Islands.

Therefore, according to the Spanish law, there should be over 11 million Catalan speakers in the future (with everybody being bilingual according to the Regional Education Departments). Right now, there should be between 7 and 8 million Catalan speakers and well over 6 million people speak Catalan at home.

Galego is widely spoken but it is very easily understood if you speak fluent Spanish. Contemporary Galego tends to get closer to Spanish and further away from the medieval common Galego-Portuguese language. This is also a political issue in Galicia itself regarding their standard. That could be spoken of in another thread.

Basque is more widely spoken amongst the younger generation and it would seem that around 30% of the Basque population speak it with over 50% in primary school children. It's making a very strong comeback.

Castilian Spanish is quite commonly heard in Barcelona (nevertheless, over 50% of the population speaks Catalan in the city itself). Many other languages are also heard in the streets, both from residents and tourist galore. Barcelona is a major European city, the size of Madrid.

That explains much of the rivalry and tug-of-war sterngth tests between these two cities.

It is very uncommon, in Europe, to find a second city as powerful as the capital of the State.

I hope this description will be useful.
Ian   Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:51 pm GMT
<< És per tu--with Spanish subtitles, cheesy lyrics and a sexy couple--by Lax'n'Busto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9cVQbTUV44 >>

M'agrada molt la cançó, però el videoclip és com un Softcore porn...
Guest   Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:46 pm GMT
<< Si, genial. Supongo que la 'e' neutra sería un poco dificil. Lo és cuando uno aprende Francés o Inglés... creo que ese sonido se llama 'schwa'.

Y que hay de la pronunciación, cuales son las reglas generales de pronunciación, como lengua romance el Catalán debe tener sus reglas fijas y consistentes para pronunciar, ¿como es?

Espero no sea tan dificil como el Francés.

Saludos

Pete >>


Hi Pete!!

I guess the schwa can be a bit hard for Spanish speakers to pronounce. But you can avoid this by:

1. Talking like the way many Barcelonenses do, that is, pronouncing the schwa more like an A.

or

2. Pronounce Valencian "the occidental way". That it, just like Spanish. But make sure you make a difference between open E (è) and closed E (é), and between open O (ò) and closed O (ó). ;-)


Good luck and have fun!!

Records,


Ian
Mallorquí.   Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:03 am GMT
Bueno, señores,

la vocal neutra catalana "ë" o "schwa" és idéntica a la segunda vocal, "a", del inglés "beggar", "never".

En catalán oriental (Perpinyà, Barcelona, Tarragona, Baleares) suenan así las "e" y "a" átonas. En la parte occidental (Valencia, Tortosa, Lleida, Andorra), la "e" y "a" átonas conservan su timbre propio, el mismo de cuando están en posición tónica.

En este punto, la fonética del catalán oriental recuerda mucho la del inglés. Por cierto, si escuchamos cantar a Bob Marley, veremos (si mi oído no me engaña) que pronuncia como "a" vocales que deberían, en inglés estándard, "ë" o sea schwa. Por lo visto en inglés local también puede darse el mismo fenómeno.

Dices, Guest, que en la pronunciación de ciertos barceloneses, esta "schwa" te suena más bien como "a" clara. Eso es debido a que una proporción enorme de barceloneses proceden de la inmigración y hablan, habitualmente, lenguas que, como el castellano o el inglés, no conocen la vocal neutra, lo que hace que su fonética en castellano no sea todo lo correcta que sería de desear.

Sin embargo, este fenómeno es minoritario. Escucha, por favor, la canción de Lax'n Busto que, en otro hilo, ha mandado, en Youtube, nuesro compañero Ian. Verás como se trata de vocales neutras sin más y su pronunciación es correcta.

Igual como, en Londres, los medios de comunicación no aceptan como locutores a hablantes de pronunciación ni acento cockney, así también la pronunciación de "ë" (schwa) como "a" no se admite en situaciones equivalentes: teatro, cine, radio y televisión. El actual presidente de la Generalitat (Gobierno local) de Cataluña, el señor José Montilla, que, como sabréis, es andaluz, tiene, en buena parte, esa característica. No así los demás políticos.

La fonética con "ë" como "a" corresponde al habla de ciertos barrios, se conoce con el nombre de "xava" y es considerada muy vulgar. En Mallorca no aparece.
Mallorquí.   Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:08 am GMT
Perdón por la metedura de pata en mi mensaje anterior. Cuando escribí "Eso es debido a que una proporción enorme de barceloneses proceden de la inmigración y hablan, habitualmente, lenguas que, como el castellano o el inglés, no conocen la vocal neutra...".

En lugar de "inglés", quería haber escrito "italiano". Evidentemente, el inglés sí que conoce la "schwa".

Lo siento en el alma. Mi corazón está sangrando del disgusto. Perdón mil veces. Errare humanum est.
Ian   Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:17 am GMT
Hi Malllorquí!

It's me who wrote the message before yours.
I forgot to put my name above, but did it at the end of the message. :-)


<< La fonética con "ë" como "a" corresponde al habla de ciertos barrios, se conoce con el nombre de "xava" y es considerada muy vulgar. En Mallorca no aparece. >>

I didn't know that.

From what I've heard, it is quite common to hear the schwa in Barcelona as a sound between schwa and A. Not completely A, though.
But to be honest, it's not that important to me. I appreciate anybody trying to speak Valencian, be it with a strong non-native accent or not. After all, even every native-speaker has an accent, no? ;-)

Salutacions,


Ian