I wonder if [7U] can be a possible realization of /o/ among native speakers. Apart from RP [@U], NA [oU] or [o], this is the impression I get sometimes from some speakers, an unrounded first element progressively becoming more rounded and closer.
Realization of /o/
It seems quite possible, but I don't remember ever hearing it. In North America, I think [o] and [ou] are the only common realizations.
I have to respectfully disagree with Josh. I'm from Massachusetts, and I realize /o/ as [7U] - the onset is back, but definitely unrounded. It may be personal bias on my part, but I get the impression from TV and everyday life that [7U] is extremely common in North America. It seems to me that when I hear a fully rounded [oU] or [o], it's indicative of certain accents like Upper Midwestern or Canadian. In other words, [oU] and [o] would sound completely "off" to me if I tried to use them as realizations of my /o/ phoneme.
(The only exception for me is before tautosyllabic /l/, where /o/ has a very distinct rounded allophone [oU].)
(The only exception for me is before tautosyllabic /l/, where /o/ has a very distinct rounded allophone [oU].)
My /oU/ is like that -- /7U/, I guess. I am not really sure what /7/ sounds like, but my mouth is unrounded at the beginning and then at the last second forms a rounded shape. It is probably the most defining feature of the Philadelphia accent.
Lazar, I know what you mean about /o/ sounding "off." Like you, when I hear a fully rounded /o/ I think Upper Midwest/Canada. I can't even really imitate that sound myself because it's so unnatural to me.
Lazar, I know what you mean about /o/ sounding "off." Like you, when I hear a fully rounded /o/ I think Upper Midwest/Canada. I can't even really imitate that sound myself because it's so unnatural to me.
>>Lazar, I know what you mean about /o/ sounding "off." Like you, when I hear a fully rounded /o/ I think Upper Midwest/Canada. I can't even really imitate that sound myself because it's so unnatural to me.<<
Yep, a clear rounded [o] is what we have here in Milwaukee, and further Up North they have an even more markedly rounded [o] than here. As for [oU], such really does not show up here much except sporadically word-finally and prevocalically in formal and careful speech (and even then the diphthongization is rather weak) and as a result of L-vocalization of /ol/ (which is extremely common). Note that [oU] from the careful pronunciation of /o/ may be mistaken as being /ol/ here (for example, I've done things like pronounced "Boeing" as ["bo:UI~:N] and had it taken to be "bowling").
Yep, a clear rounded [o] is what we have here in Milwaukee, and further Up North they have an even more markedly rounded [o] than here. As for [oU], such really does not show up here much except sporadically word-finally and prevocalically in formal and careful speech (and even then the diphthongization is rather weak) and as a result of L-vocalization of /ol/ (which is extremely common). Note that [oU] from the careful pronunciation of /o/ may be mistaken as being /ol/ here (for example, I've done things like pronounced "Boeing" as ["bo:UI~:N] and had it taken to be "bowling").
I suppose it's just my Canadian bias showing through...I've never seen /o/ transcribed as [7U] in any textbooks, though. Is [oU] maybe an older form that was "fossilized' in transcription, sort of like how /V/ isn't a back vowel anymore in most accents?
<<I've never seen /o/ transcribed as [7U] in any textbooks, though.>>
Neither have I actually. When I was first learning X-SAMPA I transcribed my /o/ as [oU] because that was the convention for North American English. But later, when I thought about it, I realized that [7U] was how I actually pronounced it.
I've seen sporadic instances on the Internet of other people using this transcription. For example, on this personal wiki ( http://wiki.firespeaker.org/Proto_English_Vowels ), two Americans transcribe their /o/ as [7U].
<<Is [oU] maybe an older form that was "fossilized' in transcription, sort of like how /V/ isn't a back vowel anymore in most accents?>>
I agree. I think [oU] came into use, for convenience sake, to represent any diphthongal realization of /o/ in North American English, regardless of whether the onset is really rounded or not.
Neither have I actually. When I was first learning X-SAMPA I transcribed my /o/ as [oU] because that was the convention for North American English. But later, when I thought about it, I realized that [7U] was how I actually pronounced it.
I've seen sporadic instances on the Internet of other people using this transcription. For example, on this personal wiki ( http://wiki.firespeaker.org/Proto_English_Vowels ), two Americans transcribe their /o/ as [7U].
<<Is [oU] maybe an older form that was "fossilized' in transcription, sort of like how /V/ isn't a back vowel anymore in most accents?>>
I agree. I think [oU] came into use, for convenience sake, to represent any diphthongal realization of /o/ in North American English, regardless of whether the onset is really rounded or not.
>>I suppose it's just my Canadian bias showing through...I've never seen /o/ transcribed as [7U] in any textbooks, though. Is [oU] maybe an older form that was "fossilized' in transcription, sort of like how /V/ isn't a back vowel anymore in most accents?<<
At least here, [oU] proper (not [7U], even though in some very unstressed cases /o/ may become [7]) will show as a formal/careful pronunciation of /o/ word-finally and prevocalically, even though in most everyday speech such is really realized as [o] in all positions, and [V] proper (that is, fully backed) is the usual pronunciation of /@/ in stressed positions (even though in careful speech I will tend more towards [7] often, while in very informal speech I often approach [A] for such).
At least here, [oU] proper (not [7U], even though in some very unstressed cases /o/ may become [7]) will show as a formal/careful pronunciation of /o/ word-finally and prevocalically, even though in most everyday speech such is really realized as [o] in all positions, and [V] proper (that is, fully backed) is the usual pronunciation of /@/ in stressed positions (even though in careful speech I will tend more towards [7] often, while in very informal speech I often approach [A] for such).
It's good to know that my perception wasn't completely off the mark. I spent some time with Wells' Accents of English the other day looking for details, but I suspect his coverage of NA accents is not as full and in-depth as the title of the book would suggest. I think that, when attempting to imitate the American accent around me, my /o/ tends to be [7U] (except, as has been said, before tautosyllabic /l/)