Which is closer to Latin

Guest   Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:39 am GMT
Sergio wrote:

"Is it known when and/or where from the future subjunctive forms used in Pt/Sp (even if quite seldom in Sp now) appeared/derived of?"

-->>>

This should be of assistance. Hope it's of help.

http://orbilat.com/Languages/Spanish/History/Subjunctive/Spanish-Subjunctive_Evolution-Index.html
greg   Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:59 am GMT
« Guest » :

« Evolution from latin {{{Phonology}}}
Sardian 7%
Italian 12%
Spanish 20%
Romanian 23.5%
Portuguese 31%
French 44% »


Ces chiffres sont une tarte à la crème : ils reviennent périodiquement et illustrent parfaitement •••••••••L'IGNORANCE••••••••• de ceux qui les emploient sans savoir ce qu'ils signifient.


Voici le texte •••••••••INTÉGRAL••••••••• : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_romanes


« L'on peut donner ici les résultats d'une étude menée par M. Pei en 1949, qui a comparé le degré d'évolution de diverses langues par rapport à leur langue-mère ; pour les langues romanes les plus importantes, SI L'ON NE CONSIDÈRE •••••••••QUE LES VOYELLE TONIQUES•••••••••, l'on obtient, par rapport au latin, les coefficients d'évolution suivants :

sarde : 8 % ;
italien : 12 % ;
castillan : 20 % ;
roumain : 23,5 % ;
occitan : 25 % ;
portugais : 31 % ;
français : 44 %.

L'on voit ainsi facilement le degré variable de conservatisme des langues romanes, la plus proche du latin phonétiquement (EN NE CONSIDÉRANT •••••••••QUE LES VOYELLES TONIQUES•••••••••) étant le sarde, la plus éloignée le français. »
Observant   Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:28 am GMT
Lexically, Italian but gramatically Romanian.
Guest   Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:08 pm GMT
Well, considering all previous posts, AND, since Italians are the direct descendants of the Romans, and one can trace a continuity (--no adoption event) from Latin to Italian, Italian can truly be considered the modern form of Latin ("Modern Latin").

French and Spanish resulted from Latin adopted--and incorrectly at that--by foreigners who were not Romans. They are not heirs of Rome and of Roman culture, although they want to be. They are "wanna-be" Latins (false-Latins); their speech is substandard in quality when compared to true [Modern] Latin (i.e. Italian).

Order:
Italian
...
French and Spanish
Guest   Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:23 pm GMT
Spain is Latin.
2 emperors (trajan and hadrian) of Rome came from Spain.
Spain was refuge for politicians and for the elite.
Spain (in ancient baetica, near corduba) was one of the ancient centers where they taught Classical latin.
Spanish is the neo-latin of the present-day; as was Latin in ancient times.
Spain is the closest to Italy then any other place.
Spanish and Italian share strong similarities in phonology and lexical.
Spanish has strong archaic-latin features:
i.e. suepnos / duenos / malo(s) / med / en =archaic-latin
i.e. sueno / bueno / malo / me / en =spanish


It would be foolish to say Spain is not Latin. It's more Latinized then France.
Clovis   Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:35 pm GMT
More latinized than France ? I don't think...More than Picardie...maybe...more than Provence ? (Provincia) I don't think so ! The south of France was latin before Spain...
Guilhem   Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:55 pm GMT
Until, of course, the Barbarian French from the North conquered Provence and delatinised it quite a bit. Many of the ancient latinised Occitans fled to Catalonia and Aragon, in Hispania after 1213.

It's funny how the French from the north kill a language and a culture whilst they brag about the Latin heritage they destroyed.
Josh Lalonde   Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:22 pm GMT
<<Well, considering all previous posts, AND, since Italians are the direct descendants of the Romans, and one can trace a continuity (--no adoption event) from Latin to Italian, Italian can truly be considered the modern form of Latin ("Modern Latin").>>

This is innacurate for a few reasons. 1) Many people living in what is now Italy were not Roman or Latin in any sense of the word in Classical times; for example, Cisalpine Gaul, Greek areas in the south, etc. 2) Italy was invaded by Germanic peoples in the same way as France: the Lombards, the Vandals, I think the Visigoths as well.
Guest   Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:32 pm GMT
<<Many people living in what is now Italy were not Roman or Latin in any sense of the word in Classical times; for example, Cisalpine Gaul, Greek areas in the south, etc.>>

--Those examples are minor. No race/culture is pure we know.
One could make an argument that Latin's not even FROM the Italian peninsula by saying that the Italic Indo-Europeans migrated it in, but for our purposes here, Italy is the home and center (give or take) of Roman culture. Period.

<< 2) Italy was invaded by Germanic peoples in the same way as France: the Lombards, the Vandals, I think the Visigoths as well. >>

--Italy was invaded, but Latin continued and prevailed.
The French are germans who learned Latin from celts. ???
Guest   Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:50 pm GMT
"The French are germans who learned Latin from celts. ??? "


You have mispelled something, we should have read :

"The Franks were germans who learned latin..."
greg   Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:52 am GMT
Guilhem : « Until, of course, the Barbarian French from the North conquered Provence and delatinised it quite a bit. »

Pourrais-tu, si ça n'est pas trop te demander, expliquer le processus de délatinisation de la Provence ?



Guilhem : « Many of the ancient latinised Occitans fled to Catalonia and Aragon, in Hispania after 1213. »

Parce que l'Hispanie n'a jamais subi de germanisation (même partielle et provisoire) ?



Guilhem : « It's funny how the French from the north kill a language and a culture whilst they brag about the Latin heritage they destroyed. »

Ce qui est encore plus drôle c'est ton ignorance apparemment sans limite :
1 — les pays d'Oïl étaient romanisés ;
2 — ce n'est pas en 1213 que les langues d'Oc ont disparu, mais plus récemment (faute de locuteurs) ;
3 — méconnais-tu à ce point l'héritage latin de la Gaule septentrionale parvenu jusqu'à nous et dont je me sers pour te répondre ?
BrIce De NIce   Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:47 am GMT
<< Guilhem : « Until, of course, the Barbarian French from the North conquered Provence and delatinised it quite a bit. »

Pourrais-tu, si ça n'est pas trop te demander, expliquer le processus de délatinisation de la Provence ?



Guilhem : « Many of the ancient latinised Occitans fled to Catalonia and Aragon, in Hispania after 1213. »

Parce que l'Hispanie n'a jamais subi de germanisation (même partielle et provisoire) ?



Guilhem : « It's funny how the French from the north kill a language and a culture whilst they brag about the Latin heritage they destroyed. »

Ce qui est encore plus drôle c'est ton ignorance apparemment sans limite :
1 — les pays d'Oïl étaient romanisés ;
2 — ce n'est pas en 1213 que les langues d'Oc ont disparu, mais plus récemment (faute de locuteurs) ;
3 — méconnais-tu à ce point l'héritage latin de la Gaule septentrionale parvenu jusqu'à nous et dont je me sers pour te répondre ? >>

Et laoooooo!
Greg t'as Cassé!!!
Clovis   Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:47 pm GMT
Bien-sur que les peuples barbares se sont installés sur les territoires latins...mais PARTOUT, même en Italie (Ostrogoths ça vous dit quelque chose ?).
Mais les barbares étaient fascinés par la culture romaine, ce sont eux qui l'ont préservée et ils n'ont surtout pas cherché à la détruire.Le Royaume des Francs était de culture latine de Tournai à Narbonne et pas de culture germanique ! Les barbares n'ont pas "délatinisé", bien au contraire ! A l'heure ou l'Empire romain d'occident était au plus bas ce sont les germains qui ont lutté pour le faire durer un peu plus !
Guest   Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:38 pm GMT
"It's funny how the French from the north kill a language and a culture whilst they brag about the Latin heritage they destroyed."


Could you precise to us in what sence the southern dialects of France would be latin and not the ones of the north ? I would be curious to see your arguments.

By the way, in the case you didn't knew it, the French of the north are far to be Franks... And the south, as well as ALL of the roman empire recieved germanic invaders. Even Andalucia get its name from germanic tribes... Are Andalucians Germanic ?
Galician   Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:09 pm GMT
"Parce que l'Hispanie n'a jamais subi de germanisation (même partielle et provisoire) ? "

Well Spain was under Germanic rule from 415 until the Arab conquest in 711 and the North continue to be ruled by this military elite. It's hard to tell how much influence the Germanic tribes - Visigothic, Vandals plus Suevians in the North West and West - but there are still plenty of words that came to Spanish from those invaders. Where I live (Galicia) the name for bread besides the more common "pan" is "broa" similar to "brot" in German and between 2 and 5% of the villages - depending who you asked have Germanic names. In this sense Spain is not very different from France. The Franks left a mark but didn't change the language and probably didn't affect the genes. Modern genetics are starting to prove that invasions could bring new technologies, new culture and often a new language but they might not affect the genetics. On the hand this is gross generalization.

It's hard to evaluate the amount of Germanic blood in Spain but modern genetics will probably have a lot to say. But this genetic map is a good starting point

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf