''bath'' and ''Mary''

Neir   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:05 pm GMT
Does ''bath'' and ''Mary'' have the same vowel sound?
Al   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:09 pm GMT
For me, yes.

bath - /be@T/

Mary - /me@ri/

trap - /tr{p/

marry - /m{ri/

''bath'' has the vowel in ''Mary'' and ''trap'' has the vowel in ''marry'' for me.
Damian in Scotland   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:10 pm GMT
For "Does" use "Do".

Mary in the bath..... same vowel sounds?

No way...not at all.....not in any accent I wouldn't have thought.
Al   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:13 pm GMT
<<No way...not at all.....not in any accent I wouldn't have thought.>>

They have the same vowel sound here in New York because we lack the Mary-marry-merry merger and also have the tense-lax ''a'' split.

Mary - /me@ri/

marry - /m{ri/

merry - /mEri/
Travis   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:14 pm GMT
For me those have quite different vowel sounds:

"bath" : /b{T/ -> [b{T]
"Mary", "marry" : /"meri/ -> ["me:.r\i]
"trap" : /tr{p/ -> [tSr\{p]
Lazar   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:20 pm GMT
They're different sounds for me as well:

Mary - [mE@r\i]
bath - [b{T]

And also,

marry - [m{r\i]
trap - [tr\{p]

I lack the Mary-merry-marry merger, but I also lack the trap-bath split.
Neir   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:20 pm GMT
Oh, so it depends on the speaker. which is the mostest common?
Brennus   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:20 pm GMT
Neir,

One is pronounced [mèri] and the other [bæth] in American English and [báth] in British English. So the vowels are not exactly the same. However, the a in 'Mary' and the a in American English 'bath' are closely related sounds defined by the IPA chart as "open-mid front vowels between A and E."
Neir   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:35 pm GMT
is ''bath'' pronounced ''bayth'' and ''Mary'' pronounce ''May-ree''? or is it different in english. i can't seem to distinguish the vowel in ''rate'' from that in ''rat''. Any advice, native speakers? they are different vowels, arn't they? i've been told by my teacher that I should work on pronouncing ''rat'' correctly.
Neir   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:36 pm GMT
How do i correctly pronounce the ''a'' in words like ''rat''?
l   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:45 pm GMT
<<How do i correctly pronounce the ''a'' in words like ''rat''?>>

The ''a'' sound in ''rat'' is lower and laxer than the ''a'' sound in ''rate''.
Brennus   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:48 pm GMT
rat - pronounced ræt
Kirk   Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:57 pm GMT
/æ/ is a front mid-low vowel, so it should be said relatively low and front in your mouth. /e(I)/ as in "rate" is a front high-mid vowel, so it's much higher in the mouth than "rat." Here's an article on /æ/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_vowel

:)
Kirk   Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:42 pm GMT
Anyway, I'm not sure which accent of English you're trying to learn, Neir, but to answer your original question, "bath" and "Mary" do not have the same vowel sounds in RP British English, General American/Canadian English, or General Antipodean English, to name some possible accents.

For what it's worth, I am an American (from California, to be specific) and do not have the same vowel in "bath" [b{T] and "Mary" ["mEr\i].

Also, one more note, not to be confusing, but in XSAMPA (the transcription system most people use here), IPA /æ/ is /{/, so I have the same vowel in "bath" and "rat" (the one mentioned in my post above).
Rick Johnson   Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:49 pm GMT
Maybe there's a village of pilgrims in rural Bolivia who pronounce it the same way, but for everyone else it's always different!

"Bath" changes in Britain depending on the accent, but there are two distinct groups- bath with a short "a" (the original pronunciation) which is common in most of Britain and "bahth" (with a long "a") which is predominantly used in the South East of England. It appears that the change came mostly in the late 1700s early 1800s- could be down to Dutch and German immigration in London (my speculation), but there is evidence that it was very much a conscious decision in the upper classes who discussed whether plant was pronounced plant or plahnt and saturday as Saturday or Sahturday!

North Americans missed this change and also preserve the short "a" sound although it's more sharp than in Britain. Australians and NZs have adopted the long "a" sound.