I don't know if any of you have ever seen this movie, but its kind of interesting. Its about an expert on dialects who takes a cockney girl and changes her accent enough to pass her off as a duchess. He can pinpoint where people grew up within two streets in London and within twenty miles elsewhere in Britain. I don't know exactly how correct it is because it was made in the 30's and things have changed since then, but it was worth a watch. Just one problem, the professor, played by Leslie Howard, is such an egotistical snob about all other accents being so far beneath RP that he can be a little hard to listen to sometimes. Anyway, if you have seen it tell me what you think and if you haven't I recommend it.
Pygmalion
The play by George Bernard Shaw is called Pygmalion and I love it. I have not seen the movie you are referring to. The one I have seen is called My Fair Lady (1964). It is one of my favorites. Audrey Hepburn plays Eliza and Rex Harrison plays Henry Higgins.
Oh yes, that's a good drama and a good film...and a good musical, too.
Well, Rene, it's just fiction and as such it has to be taken with a grain of sodium chloride :-).
I think the whole issue itself was intended to be tongue-in-cheek on Shaw's part. The professor's arrogant manners and prescriptivism are deliberately overexaggerated. Honestly, the mere idea of a person having a morbid aversion towards all regional / non-standard accents/dialects and being a dialectologist (and a phonetician) at the same time is rather bizarre. He comes across as slightly mazochistic to me, as no sane person would choose his bete noire to be his area of expertise.
As you say, his views on regional varieties and his RP-fetishism are completely outdated, if not utterly ridiculous.
By the way, do you mean the character itself or particularly Leslie Howard?
I might have missed your point, as I was talking (rather writing) about Prfofessor Higgins, the character.
Well, Rene, it's just fiction and as such it has to be taken with a grain of sodium chloride :-).
I think the whole issue itself was intended to be tongue-in-cheek on Shaw's part. The professor's arrogant manners and prescriptivism are deliberately overexaggerated. Honestly, the mere idea of a person having a morbid aversion towards all regional / non-standard accents/dialects and being a dialectologist (and a phonetician) at the same time is rather bizarre. He comes across as slightly mazochistic to me, as no sane person would choose his bete noire to be his area of expertise.
As you say, his views on regional varieties and his RP-fetishism are completely outdated, if not utterly ridiculous.
By the way, do you mean the character itself or particularly Leslie Howard?
I might have missed your point, as I was talking (rather writing) about Prfofessor Higgins, the character.
No, I was talking about the character in general. I know it was over-done for comedic purposes, and I can handle that. I just couldn't believe Eliza went back to him after he trashed her for being lower class so often. It would have been fine if he had just trashed her accent in general, but there was no call to continually call her a "sqaushed cabage leaf" over it. Maybe its just me, but I think I would demand a little more respect than that no matter how I spoke. This is getting a little of the accent topic I know, but just to clarify my own opinion...
The film "My Fair Lady" was, of course, based on Shaw's "Pygmalion" - the whole storyline was Shaw's creation.
Incidentally, when "Pygmalion" was first shown on the English stage the staid stiff and starchy audiences of the time (1913)were profoundly shocked when Eliza Doolittle yelled out in frustration: "Not bloody likely!" That was truly outrageous in the England of the day. Polite English society almost had the vapours to hear that word uttered in such a way on the London stage, and apparently some ladies of a delicate disposition fainted from the unexpected experience to hear language that had somehow passed through the Lord Chamberlain.
Imagine their reaction if a sudden and miraculous resurrection to 21st century Britain allowed them to hear and witness what now takes place on this country's stages. :-)
Incidentally, when "Pygmalion" was first shown on the English stage the staid stiff and starchy audiences of the time (1913)were profoundly shocked when Eliza Doolittle yelled out in frustration: "Not bloody likely!" That was truly outrageous in the England of the day. Polite English society almost had the vapours to hear that word uttered in such a way on the London stage, and apparently some ladies of a delicate disposition fainted from the unexpected experience to hear language that had somehow passed through the Lord Chamberlain.
Imagine their reaction if a sudden and miraculous resurrection to 21st century Britain allowed them to hear and witness what now takes place on this country's stages. :-)
Rene, you are absolutely right. Maybe Eliza is bit of a mazochist, too. :-)
On the face of it, Higgins was really mean to that poor lass. But, in fact, I think he loved her very much. Rudeness was just in his style, and it is left to the reader's/viewer's imagination whether he is gonna change with the help of Eliza or not. He has always been sort of a loner, a "bachelor boy" who has no intention of getting married. His attitude changed somehow at the point when he got sort of attracted to Eliza. However, I still think that a man can change in some ways but hardly ever enterily.
But you know, love is blind... :-)
What I find really strange is Eliza's behaviour when she goes back to the East End after having left Higgins. She speaks with that ultra mega posh cut-glass RP accent and doesn't switch back to broad Cockney.
On the face of it, Higgins was really mean to that poor lass. But, in fact, I think he loved her very much. Rudeness was just in his style, and it is left to the reader's/viewer's imagination whether he is gonna change with the help of Eliza or not. He has always been sort of a loner, a "bachelor boy" who has no intention of getting married. His attitude changed somehow at the point when he got sort of attracted to Eliza. However, I still think that a man can change in some ways but hardly ever enterily.
But you know, love is blind... :-)
What I find really strange is Eliza's behaviour when she goes back to the East End after having left Higgins. She speaks with that ultra mega posh cut-glass RP accent and doesn't switch back to broad Cockney.
<<Imagine their reaction if a sudden and miraculous resurrection to 21st century Britain allowed them to hear and witness what now takes place on this country's stages. :-) >>
They will faint and will never recover from shock. RIP!
They will faint and will never recover from shock. RIP!
<<I still think that a man can change in some ways but hardly ever enterily.>>
I don't mean a male here...man=a person. I should have put it more PC.
So, no offence to men... :-)
I don't mean a male here...man=a person. I should have put it more PC.
So, no offence to men... :-)
DAMIAN:
That's weeell seerious!!! ;-)
Yes, that time was completely different from what we have know. Some people are unscrupulously using the f-word as a conjunction, which I find a bit infuriating. Times change, but neither of the two extremes is good (in my opinion).
That's weeell seerious!!! ;-)
Yes, that time was completely different from what we have know. Some people are unscrupulously using the f-word as a conjunction, which I find a bit infuriating. Times change, but neither of the two extremes is good (in my opinion).
Yeah, I guess that language would have been a bit of a shock to its Edwardian audience. I knew it was highly improper when she said it, but it left me entirely unchecked.
I think Prof. Higgins used a lot of the rudeness to cover up his feelings and I also think that it was probably very much how he did feel at first, and he just kind of kept going for that "image". Still, I agree with his mother, Eliza should have thrown the fire poker at him instead of his slippers.
"What I find really strange is Eliza's behaviour when she goes back to the East End after having left Higgins. She speaks with that ultra mega posh cut-glass RP accent and doesn't switch back to broad Cockney."
I guess that that was just proof of her own belief that her Cockney accent was something to be ashamed of and Professor Higgins had more to do with that than society in general (in my opinion). Now that you bring that up it makes me like the character even less, which I know probably wasn't your intention.
I think Prof. Higgins used a lot of the rudeness to cover up his feelings and I also think that it was probably very much how he did feel at first, and he just kind of kept going for that "image". Still, I agree with his mother, Eliza should have thrown the fire poker at him instead of his slippers.
"What I find really strange is Eliza's behaviour when she goes back to the East End after having left Higgins. She speaks with that ultra mega posh cut-glass RP accent and doesn't switch back to broad Cockney."
I guess that that was just proof of her own belief that her Cockney accent was something to be ashamed of and Professor Higgins had more to do with that than society in general (in my opinion). Now that you bring that up it makes me like the character even less, which I know probably wasn't your intention.
<<I guess that that was just proof of her own belief that her Cockney accent was something to be ashamed of and Professor Higgins had more to do with that than society in general (in my opinion). Now that you bring that up it makes me like the character even less, which I know probably wasn't your intention.>>
Oh no, that isn't a problem at all. I don't want to force upon you anything...It's down to you whether you like the character or not. I agree - before Eliza met Higgins, she might not have been aware of the stigmatised status of her accent, or if she was, she didn't give a flying toss. It was Higgins' negative attitude towards her and her accent that instilled inferiority complex in the poor girl.
It's interesting to see that Higgins was not only supposed to be the epitomy of *the* linguist but that of *the* teacher, too. It's sad because he keeps committing typical methodological faux pas such as instilling fear and shame in the student. Sadly enough, the general view on teachers hasn't changed too much ever since.
Oh no, that isn't a problem at all. I don't want to force upon you anything...It's down to you whether you like the character or not. I agree - before Eliza met Higgins, she might not have been aware of the stigmatised status of her accent, or if she was, she didn't give a flying toss. It was Higgins' negative attitude towards her and her accent that instilled inferiority complex in the poor girl.
It's interesting to see that Higgins was not only supposed to be the epitomy of *the* linguist but that of *the* teacher, too. It's sad because he keeps committing typical methodological faux pas such as instilling fear and shame in the student. Sadly enough, the general view on teachers hasn't changed too much ever since.
"I agree - before Eliza met Higgins, she might not have been aware of the stigmatised status of her accent, or if she was, she didn't give a flying toss. It was Higgins' negative attitude towards her and her accent that instilled inferiority complex in the poor girl."
Cool, that's exactly what I meant. As a side note, Higgins may not have been an ideal teacher, but he was effective. I mean, by the time Eliza left her RP was perfect and she wasn't about to speak any other way. Not that I am condoning such teaching methods.
Cool, that's exactly what I meant. As a side note, Higgins may not have been an ideal teacher, but he was effective. I mean, by the time Eliza left her RP was perfect and she wasn't about to speak any other way. Not that I am condoning such teaching methods.
<<Cool, that's exactly what I meant. As a side note, Higgins may not have been an ideal teacher, but he was effective. I mean, by the time Eliza left her RP was perfect and she wasn't about to speak any other way. Not that I am condoning such teaching methods.>>
Oh yes...just because someone is an effective teacher doesn't mean he is a good teacher, too. But it's hardly ever tru the other way round...
Oh yes...just because someone is an effective teacher doesn't mean he is a good teacher, too. But it's hardly ever tru the other way round...
In the film "My Fair Lady" one of my fave bits was when Higgings decided that all his patient tuition had paid off, with all the rain now having fallen on the plain in Spain, and the now elegant Eliza was enough of a "refined well bred lady" to be taken to the Royal enclosure at the Ascot races. As the horses thundered by, with Eliza's horse lagging a wee bit, all refinement flies out the window and she yells out in her very best guttersnipe Cockney:
"Aaaaaaahhhh...come aaahhhhnnnn.....shift ya bloomin' arse!"
Her dad back in Covent Garden market would have been "prahd of 'er!"
I agree that things can be considered as having swung too far in the other direction now. Effing and blinding is now practically "de rigueur" on the stage, let alone TV. Plus everything else (eg "Mother Clapp's Molly House") but we do live in a free society and by and large we are a reasonably intelligent and liberally broad minded society and most productions give plenty of warning in advance of "adult content". The word "adult" is a bit nebulous anyway - "adult" in the UK now looks as if it starts at about age seven.
If people have an idea that they may be offended by anything they can go and see the current production of "The Sound of Music" instead .....or stay at home and watch Richard and Judy - but even they have their moments :-)
"Aaaaaaahhhh...come aaahhhhnnnn.....shift ya bloomin' arse!"
Her dad back in Covent Garden market would have been "prahd of 'er!"
I agree that things can be considered as having swung too far in the other direction now. Effing and blinding is now practically "de rigueur" on the stage, let alone TV. Plus everything else (eg "Mother Clapp's Molly House") but we do live in a free society and by and large we are a reasonably intelligent and liberally broad minded society and most productions give plenty of warning in advance of "adult content". The word "adult" is a bit nebulous anyway - "adult" in the UK now looks as if it starts at about age seven.
If people have an idea that they may be offended by anything they can go and see the current production of "The Sound of Music" instead .....or stay at home and watch Richard and Judy - but even they have their moments :-)