Japanese vs Chinese

Spanish Government Office   Sat May 05, 2007 4:10 am GMT
Which one should I learn? What are the benefits of each? What are the advantages (career wise, cultural etc) of each one and the disadvantages? How do they compare in levels of difficulty? What makes each one what it is and why?

That's all my loyal subjects, now write.
furrykef   Sat May 05, 2007 4:45 am GMT
That's a very broad question. The basic question -- "Which one should I learn?" -- is one that only you can answer, although we can try to help you find that answer.

First, it really depends on your motivations for learning one of these languages. Do you just want to try an East Asian language, or do you have something more specific in mind such as a type of job you might want?

As for ease of learning, I would guess that Japanese is the easier language to learn, but they're both very difficult if you want to learn both the written and spoken languages. You will need to memorize about 3000 characters to be literate in Japanese, and you might need more than that (certainly not less) to be equally literate in Chinese, although 3000 will still get you pretty far in Chinese. On the other hand, a single Chinese character usually has a single pronunciation, whereas a Japanese character can typically be pronounced in two or three ways. Both systems are a heavy burden on the memory.

Japanese is much easier to pronounce correctly than Chinese. All varieties of Chinese are tonal. For instance, Mandarin (the standard dialect in China and the one you probably should learn) has four tones. If you pronounce a word with a high tone, a rising tone, a deep falling-and-rising tone, and a high falling tone, all four of those are completely different words, just as if you had changed a letter in a word. What's really problematic is that these tones are often very difficult for foreigners to hear because we're so used to tone having a completely different function in our speech.

On the other hand, Chinese grammar is much simpler (from an English speaker's point of view, at least), and it somewhat resembles English grammar, although I don't know a lot of details. Cultural things matter, too... I think Chinese etiquette is much easier to master, whereas Japanese etiquette has tons and tons of rules, some built into the language and some not, and you probably risk offending somebody every minute you're in Japan. :)

And of course there's so much more, too...

- Kef
K. T.   Sat May 05, 2007 7:10 am GMT
Kef makes a lot of good points. I think one can be literate in Japanese with fewer than 3,000 characters though. In school one has to learn around 2,000 characters. 10,000 is what you need in Chinese, I understand.

Japanese will be a piece of cake for Spanish speakers (sounds only)...

Chinese may be more practical. If you learn Chinese, then you have a huge advantage in learning Japanese. Chinese learners of Japanese seem to progress quickly. This applies only to reading, though imo.

A French book, "Memento des Kanji" is wonderful for showing pictures of all of the Kanji that one must learn, giving hints on how to remember the Kanji. The author is Jean-Claude Martin.
furrykef   Sat May 05, 2007 7:59 am GMT
<< I think one can be literate in Japanese with fewer than 3,000 characters though. In school one has to learn around 2,000 characters. 10,000 is what you need in Chinese, I understand. >>

Well, there are 1945 jouyou kanji, which is where the common "around 2000" figure comes from. However, there are many more kanji than this in common use, especially in names, and it's common to find kanji outside this list in all sorts of writing outside of newspapers and school materials. Even though the Japanese don't have to study them in school, they'll learn many of these kanji simply by encountering them often enough in their day-to-day lives. I've heard higher estimates for the number of kanji that the average native speaker knows (6000 was the highest), but 3000 is probably a decent figure for how many you need to actually memorize.

The 10,000 figure for Chinese sounds much too high to me. It might be possible if you count recognizing simple variations, such as how some characters might be written with an extra stroke but are otherwise the same character in both semantics and pronunciation. In some (but not nearly all) cases, you can predict the Simplified Chinese character from Traditional Chinese character, so you get two characters for the price of one. I would say that 10,000 Chinese characters are the absolute upper bound for what you can expect an average Chinese person to know, and they probably won't use all these characters themselves (just as active vocabulary is always smaller than passive vocabulary).

> Chinese may be more practical. If you learn Chinese, then you have a huge advantage in learning Japanese.

The reverse should be true as well. Also, a lot of people aren't willing to put in all the effort needed to master just one of the two languages, let alone both, so it'd probably be wise to pick the one you'd rather learn if you only get to learn one. That's a major reason why I'm learning Japanese and not Chinese right now, because I know if I had to pick only one, I'd go with Japanese.

> Chinese learners of Japanese seem to progress quickly. This applies only to reading, though imo.

The Chinese and Japanese spoken languages are entirely unrelated, so it will indeed only apply to writing. Well, not quite: a great many Japanese words are taken either directly from Chinese, or composed of Chinese morphemes. But these words were taken a long time ago and from a variety of dialects (and remember that different dialects of spoken Chinese are mutually unintelligible!), and they were modified to fit Japanese phonology, so it wouldn't really help all that much.

- Kef
furrykef   Sat May 05, 2007 12:57 pm GMT
Sigh. The English forum seems relatively well-behaved, but it seems that any thread on the Language forum goes to hell before page two.

Guys, if you have nothing to say that pertains to the topic, please, stay out of the thread. Even if some idiot comes along and trolls, don't add to the noise by issuing a response. It won't help and will only make discussion harder.

- Kef
K.T.   Sun May 06, 2007 4:04 am GMT
I think Japanese may be a bit easier-at least the sounds would be for a native Spanish speaker (Spanish govt. office request). There are far fewer Kanji, so there are TWO big advantages right away.

But Chinese is great too!

What is the reason for choosing one over the other?

Japanese culture and Chinese culture ARE different. I can't say if someone I don't know would adapt better to one language or another.

Certainly some people have strong feelings about the Japanese, even today. I think how someone feels about a culture COULD influence how
much progress one makes.

JMO

I think both languages are interesting-Hanzi and Kanji are really addicting.
One reads and one has an entirely different feeling than reading in French or Spanish. Besides the meaning, both sound and picture delight you
when reading.

Again, jmo.
Mitch   Sun May 06, 2007 6:44 am GMT
A couple of observations as an English-speaker who has studied both languages:

The number of characters that one needs to know in both languages is similar. furrykef is right about the ~3000 characters for Japanese, and studies have shown similar numbers for Chinese, even though there is no "official" list like the jouyou kanji for Japanese. See: http://www.zein.se/patrick/3000en.html

In one respect, though, Japanese writing is much more difficult than Chinese. Most characters in Mandarin have a single pronunciation. (The tone may change depending on the following character, but it is usually predictable.) Almost every Japanese kanji has two completely different readings, "on" (borrowed from Chinese) and "kun" (native Japanese words). And each on and kun reading can have several different pronunciations! On top of that, one needs to learn TWO Japanese syllabries, indicating grammatical endings (hiragana) and foreign words (katakana).

I found Chinese grammar extremely straightforward. Japanese was a little trickier. (But still better than most European languages.)

As for pronunciation: Japanese was both easy to pronounce and to understand. (If Japanese used romaji--Latin letters--instead of characters, it would be relatively easy to read and understand. Reading Mandarin pinyin is not nearly as easy.) The tones for Mandarin took a while to get down, but are not impossible to produce. The difficulty is to remember each word with its tone. And the REAL difficulty is understanding Mandarin: every syllable can have a multiple of meanings, even on a single tone. It is hard to pick out what someone is saying, especially if the dialect is different from standard Beijing. ("44" in Mandarin is: si shi si, which, from the average Taiwanese, sounds like "s s s."

I think that Chinese may eventually be more important than Japanese in business, but for now, there are probably more jobs, especially high level positions, for Japanese. My friend is now a Vice President of a Japanese company, the only "gaijin" in that position, and it all started with a job offer from a businessman whom he helped in the airport, speaking Japanese.
Guest   Sun May 06, 2007 11:17 am GMT
Hey Franco, looks like some of our messages were deleted. They were not out of the topic of this thread. i wonder why?
I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE M   Sun May 06, 2007 6:56 pm GMT
I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATOI FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!!RS!!!!!!I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!!I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!! I FUCK ANTIMOON AND THE MODERATORS!!!!!!

Why?
Because they support the american hegemony, and they destroy constestings and others opinions!
Ralph   Sun May 06, 2007 11:26 pm GMT
well actually for a Chinese learner that Chinese and Japanese are not related, for a Japanese they are not related in pronunciation, but if you were a native-Chinese speaker u would feel they are really related cuz research shows lots of Japanese words sound like Chinese with strange tones for Chinese-speakers, they can easily remember these words with just skim through them, the deep reason is still unknown but they guess it's because Chinese are less pronunciation sensitive rather than tones.
YOU FUCK   Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:43 am GMT
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YOU FUCK   Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:50 am GMT
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FUCK BRENNUS   Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:00 am GMT
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