Vosotros? archaic usage?

Freud   Sun May 06, 2007 10:17 am GMT
I watched a film dubbed into Spanish and all of the characters used the conjugations of vosotros but even when talking to only one person. It was set in the 18th century with noblemen and the likes. Is this archaic usage? Can it be explained or is it paranormal?
Guest   Sun May 06, 2007 2:25 pm GMT
Do you mind telling us what movie it was? (the title)
Seems strange.
furrykef   Sun May 06, 2007 4:56 pm GMT
They were actually using vos, not vosotros. The 18th century was probably the last century where this usage was common in Spain, and it was already dying throughout the 17th century. They probably used "vos" to emphasize the archaic effect, much as one might use "thou" in a play set in the 17th century. Much as "thou" can be found in Shakespeare, "vos" can be found in Cervantes.

Historically, vos was used instead of usted and ustedes -- it was both singular and plural. The word "usted" actually comes from "vuestra merced", which means "your mercy", which explains why the "usted" forms are the same as the third-person forms. The word "vosotros" is a combination of "vos" and "otros", rather like saying "you all", which eventually became the standard plural form (kind of like how "y'all" is the standard form in some dialects of English, except of course that it's acceptable even in formal speech).

The singular pronoun "vos" actually survives in a few places in Latin America, especially Central America and the Southern Cone. The use of the pronoun "vos" is called "voseo". Oddly enough, in these regions, vos is used instead of tú, not usted or ustedes, which are used normally. In most places, vos has conjugations that are similar to, but different from, the standard vosotros conjugations of Spain. How exactly they are different depends on the region. The use of vos instead of tú has long been stigmatized, but it seems to be gaining acceptance, and in some regions, like Nicaragua and Argentina, it's considered standard usage.

More information, especially about the modern usage of vos, can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo

By the way, what's really funny about my analogy between "vos" and "thou" at the top of my post... the word "thou" was actually the informal word, with "you" being the formal word. But, due to the contexts it usually shows up in, these days people get the impression that it was a formal word, not an informal one. Spanish has the opposite situation: "vos" was once a formal pronoun, but these days it's informal. Weird how stuff like that can work out, huh?

- Kef
Guest   Sun May 06, 2007 6:20 pm GMT
Ye is related to Vos
Thou is related to Tú
Thee is related to Ti
Thy is related to Tu
Thine is realted to Tus
Your is related to Vuestro/a
etc.
furrykef   Sun May 06, 2007 8:02 pm GMT
> Thine is realted to Tus

Nope. "Thine" corresponds to "tuyo". :) If you're thinking of expressions like "thine eyes", the word "thine" is used in that case because "eyes" starts with a vowel, not because it's plural. The rest is correct, though, except "vos" is equivalent to both "you" and "ye", not just "ye".

- Kef
guest   Sun May 06, 2007 8:36 pm GMT
Thou/Thee are related to Tu/Ti (Te) at the Centum IE level, same with German Du/Dich/Dir, etc.

Thy/Thine are germanic formations copied from the IE first person singular (cf. mene/meme* - my/mine). ['Thy' is merely a corruption of 'Thine']

Ye/You/Your are related to Low German Jie/Juu/Juun; German Ihr/Euch/Euer; Gothic Jus/izwis/izwara, but only partially to Italic derived Vos in Spanish. Vos is attested from Wos* an enclitic form of IE Yus* (Ye, You plural)
ElPinoy   Mon May 07, 2007 12:40 am GMT
"The singular pronoun "vos" actually survives in a few places in Latin America, especially Central America and the Southern Cone."

Don't forget that Vos is also used in Chavacano, especially when cursing off someone. Yeah that's right. Our own people in Zamboanga also use and survived Vos and Vosotros althought they don't conjugate the verbs. Por ejemplo (Just examples and not toward anyone):

Ignorante Vos! - You're ignorant!
Chingga vos nana! - 'F' your mom!
Muri ya ere vos! Wish you'd die
Quierre vos golpe? Wanna be punched?
NO hay vos nada! You are nothing!
Cabrona vos! You're a Bitch!
Pendejo vos! You're stupid!

It's really funny that Chavacano swear words are just like how Mexicans swear with the exception of Vos

I have read that Vos and Vosotros are used as formal in certain Spanish speaking countries, but it is also used the other way (meaning when speaking to a servant) in other countries.
Ian   Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:14 am GMT
Kef wrote:
"By the way, what's really funny about my analogy between "vos" and "thou" at the top of my post... the word "thou" was actually the informal word, with "you" being the formal word. But, due to the contexts it usually shows up in, these days people get the impression that it was a formal word, not an informal one. Spanish has the opposite situation: "vos" was once a formal pronoun, but these days it's informal. Weird how stuff like that can work out, huh?"

Yes, in certain countries the situation has indeed turned around, with TÚ being more formal than VOS.

In Indonesian KAMU was also originally plural, but is now used as a singular pronoun.
The modern word for you (plural) is a shortened form of KAMU SEKALIAN. Comparable to Spanish VOS-OTROS, the only difference is that in Spanish, vosotros is not shortened to, say, "Tros".
Guest   Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:24 pm GMT
Vosotros is not archaic because it is well alive in the Spanish spoken in Spain