> Furry is learning Emglish and wants to teach it at the same time.
Pos, I didn't do anything to deserve such condescension. Just because I presented an argument that you disagree with does not make me an idiot. Nor do I think you and M56 are dumb for disagreeing with me. My only problem was I was getting very angry because I kept getting told I was wrong without any sort of explanation. You simply can't debate unless you're willing to defend your position. (Yes, I know M56 brought up the "remote forms" thing, but I'm talking about before that.) I was trying to get to the bottom of the issue. You can't get to the bottom of something if your interlocutor only wants to drag you back up to the surface.
> Your take on this hasn't taught me anything. I think M56's take seems most logical.
I still don't think so, because I don't see any connection between the sentences like "What was the name please?", and sentences like "Could you help me?" or "Might I take your order?" are even related to the sentence "What was the name, please?". That's why I was arguing that the first two sentences were in the conditional mood (or, if you prefer, the "remote form"). With the conditional mood, there's always an auxiliary verb (you can't use the conditional mood in English without one). In the sentence "What was the name, please?", there's no auxiliary verb, so it's different.
As for *how* it's different, I think that's a simple matter of "completing" the sentence: "What was the name you were wanting to look up when you called us?" Of course, nobody would say the full sentence that way, but the point is, there is a connection to the past in this sentence: the caller had a name in mind before calling. But you can't "complete" the sentence in a similar fashion with a question like "Could I help you?" If I try to complete it, I end up with something like "Could I help you, if you don't mind?" That's a conditional construction, and there's no connection to the past. Although it appears similar, it's fundamentally different.
Looking through the thread again, I also found another example in one of M56's posts: "Did you want to try that dress on, madam?" But there still has to be a connection to the past. I don't think the following exchange is likely:
Salesman: And here we have this...
(He shows the woman a dress.)
Woman: Why, this is a lovely dress!
Salesman: Did you want to try it on, madam?
"Did you..." sounds unnatural here (to me, at least) because the woman didn't even see the dress until just now. The salesman would say "Would you like to...?" or "Do you...?" But if it was a few minutes ago that the dress was presented, then there's a connection to the past there, and "Did you...?" becomes possible.
Now, the reason why somebody might say "What was the name, please?" instead of "What is the name, please?" might indeed have to do with some kind of formal social distancing, but you can't just use the past tense instead of the present any time you want to be more formal. There still has to be some kind of connection to the past. But that caveat doesn't apply to questions like "Could I help you?".
Do you have any counterexamples, M56?
- Kef
Pos, I didn't do anything to deserve such condescension. Just because I presented an argument that you disagree with does not make me an idiot. Nor do I think you and M56 are dumb for disagreeing with me. My only problem was I was getting very angry because I kept getting told I was wrong without any sort of explanation. You simply can't debate unless you're willing to defend your position. (Yes, I know M56 brought up the "remote forms" thing, but I'm talking about before that.) I was trying to get to the bottom of the issue. You can't get to the bottom of something if your interlocutor only wants to drag you back up to the surface.
> Your take on this hasn't taught me anything. I think M56's take seems most logical.
I still don't think so, because I don't see any connection between the sentences like "What was the name please?", and sentences like "Could you help me?" or "Might I take your order?" are even related to the sentence "What was the name, please?". That's why I was arguing that the first two sentences were in the conditional mood (or, if you prefer, the "remote form"). With the conditional mood, there's always an auxiliary verb (you can't use the conditional mood in English without one). In the sentence "What was the name, please?", there's no auxiliary verb, so it's different.
As for *how* it's different, I think that's a simple matter of "completing" the sentence: "What was the name you were wanting to look up when you called us?" Of course, nobody would say the full sentence that way, but the point is, there is a connection to the past in this sentence: the caller had a name in mind before calling. But you can't "complete" the sentence in a similar fashion with a question like "Could I help you?" If I try to complete it, I end up with something like "Could I help you, if you don't mind?" That's a conditional construction, and there's no connection to the past. Although it appears similar, it's fundamentally different.
Looking through the thread again, I also found another example in one of M56's posts: "Did you want to try that dress on, madam?" But there still has to be a connection to the past. I don't think the following exchange is likely:
Salesman: And here we have this...
(He shows the woman a dress.)
Woman: Why, this is a lovely dress!
Salesman: Did you want to try it on, madam?
"Did you..." sounds unnatural here (to me, at least) because the woman didn't even see the dress until just now. The salesman would say "Would you like to...?" or "Do you...?" But if it was a few minutes ago that the dress was presented, then there's a connection to the past there, and "Did you...?" becomes possible.
Now, the reason why somebody might say "What was the name, please?" instead of "What is the name, please?" might indeed have to do with some kind of formal social distancing, but you can't just use the past tense instead of the present any time you want to be more formal. There still has to be some kind of connection to the past. But that caveat doesn't apply to questions like "Could I help you?".
Do you have any counterexamples, M56?
- Kef