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Pronunciation of Spanish
Luciano Canepari's (University of Venice)
Pronunciation of Spanish appeared on his site http://venus.unive.it/canipa/pdf/HPr_06_Spanish.pdf Enjoy!
Pas mal du tout. Notamment le passage sur les pseudodiphtongues et les pseudotriphtongues.
Whoa! Kendra.
AND: Pas mal du tout. Notamment le passage sur les pseudodiphtongues et les pseudotriphtongues I don't wish to be rude, but could you tell me why you always write in French in the English forum. I read and speak French, so it isn't a real problem, but it's curious.
>>I don't wish to be rude, but could you tell me why you always write in French in the English forum.<<
He's getting some practice for his barn animals. Why he chooses French, where an international language would be most appropriate, is irrational however.
>He's getting some practice for his barn animals. Why he chooses French, where an international language would be most appropriate, is irrational however.<
I suppose you suggest he learn Spanish, right? You Hispanic Fanatics crack me up. Your language is practically the lingua franca of the underclass in the Americas, yet you have the gall to criticize French? Hilarious.
<I am French and much of France is an underclass!>
Yeah, okay, that's believable. The Hispanic Fanatics are out in full force today apparently!
Regarding the original message that started the thread, I find Canepari's approach interesting and possibly useful. I have a few quibbles when it comes to his treatment of /s/ before pauses or consonants. He seems to recognize only two possibilities for a word such as "estos": ["estos] (in his "neutral" pronunciation) or ["ehtoh] (in "a non-neutral variant for American, Canary, and Andalusian Spanish). In the neutral pronunciation of Argentina and Uruguay ["ehtos] is correct and common, ["estos] is affected or foreign, and ["ehtoh] is uneducated or very informal.
"and ["ehtoh] is uneducated or very informal."
I love it when people make generalizations they can't support. It your own personal opinion that this pronunciation is un-educated. Just as all the other pronunciations, it is just another way of pronouncing the aspirated "s" and I have heard many educated people pronouncing the "s" this way. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean its wrong just variation.
<<love it when people make generalizations they can't support. It your own personal opinion that this pronunciation is un-educated. Just as all the other pronunciations, it is just another way of pronouncing the aspirated "s" and I have heard many educated people pronouncing the "s" this way. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean its wrong just variation.>>
JGreco is setting up a straw man argument by saying that I consider the pronunciation in which both instances of /s/ are aspirated "wrong". He adds that I don't like them. In fact, I do not consider them "wrong". Nor do I dislike them. He's right to call it "variation". But it's not random variation. It correlates with education, (and to a lesser extent, degree of formality) at least in my country. If I were to turn on the news and the newscaster delivered his report aspirating all instances of /s/, it would sound extremely off to me. Likewise, it would be a rare event to attend a university lecture in which the professor aspirated every instance of /s/. I simply characterized them as "uneducated" or "very informal" in a particular variety of Spanish, i.e. the neutral pronunciation - used by broadcasters, newsreaders, and generally perceived as accentless by native speakers such as myself - of a specific area: El Rio de la Plata. There's little judgment of my own there. Besides, I think JGreco may have missed my point. Here it is again: in neutral rioplatense Spanish /s/ is aspirated only before consonants and rarely before pauses. Which is why /estos/ becomes [ehtos] unless it's followed by another consonant. So "estos hombres" is ["ehtos"omb4es] but "estos dias" is ["ehtoh"Dias]. Canepari only recognizes the lack of aspiration, or aspiration before pauses and consonants.
Overall, Mexico is home to a diverse pronunciation of the Spanish language. One interesting variant I would to shed light on is the one located in central mexico (Jalisco and its surrounding states) where they speak a pleasant / clear type of Spanish and emphasized smoothly on their s's. Anyhow this sibilant [s] phenomenon is found in certain parts of Spain (i.e. Salamanca, Valladolid etc.) as well as Jalisco and its bordering states.
To hear a similar resemblance of the JALISCO pronunciation go here: http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/spanish/frameset.html (click on fricatives and go to the bottom of the page and CLICK on -[s]- with the cedilla below it.) And if you guys want to listen to how people from Jalisco (Mexico) sound like go here, notice how they emphasized smoothly on their s's and have a clear intonation: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ssJ7M-JIBQE
Sorry for being radical but letter 's' has to be pronounced as it is supposed it has to be pronounced: as 'ssssssss', like the sound of the air escaping under pressure.
Other way is definitively WRONG! Ok Gabriel, shoot!
Aldo, you really surprised me! This is quite a departure from your usual loosey-goosey attitude regarding Spanish phonology. Now you are being drastically prescriptive, saying that /s/ should always be [s] and anything different is wrong (by the way, do you have [s] or [z] in "desde"?).
How should we judge what is wrong? On purely historical grounds? Based on number of speakers who use a certain pronunciation? Based on the personal merits - education, prestige, etc - of those who use a certain pronunciation?
Ok, I won't go too deep.
'S' has been 'S' for centuries and for lots of languages. Image for a second that letter 'D' now sounds like a 'T' or 'R' like a 'L' and so on, is it healthy for a language and communication ? of course not. <<by the way, do you have [s] or [z] in "desde"?).>> dessssssde, and you ? dejjjjjjjde ? |