"Ubi sunt?": Discussion deletions

Gjones2   Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:29 pm GMT
To expect anything more than transience from a net forum may be to expect too much. I confess, though, that I did have hopes of it. One major difference between the spoken word and the written word is that there's more hope of permanence with the latter. I came across this site as the result of a net search that turned up an archived post about pronunciation. I thought, "Hmm, I like this. You write a post, and somebody may read it even years later."

Now with the recent deletions I'm beginning to wonder whether I can count on that. I especially have in mind the discussion "Why some people (specially anglo-saxons) hate the french???" The topic itself was obviously in violation of the forum rules, yet the discussion was allowed to go on for a very long time. When that happens, posts good and bad -- on topics both linguistic and non-linguistic -- accumulate. I myself spent many hours contributing posts to that discussion. To see all that work disappear overnight was disappointing.
Gjones2   Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:31 pm GMT
As a relatively new person here, I may not understand how the forum works, or the constraints under which it must operate. Please don't take what I say as an effort to put down the administrators. Both those who make net space available to the public and those who take the time to administer it deserve some appreciation for what they do.

Having posted at many sites over the years, I realize that it's difficult to find a perfect way to handle off-topic posts, and that what works at one site may not work at another. My own preference is for there to be tolerance of non-provocative, off-topic posts that don't lead to arguments. Amiable off-topic posts can make a forum more lively, and keep it from becoming too stuffy. When provocative off-topic posts lead to arguments, though, I support deletions from the first provocative post to the last response -- but only if that can be done relatively quickly. Also if there are substantial deletions, I appreciate a notice that they have taken place. That way writers of on-topic remarks within the deleted off-topic posts will know to repost them.

Once a political topic is allowed to go on for a very long time, though, there's little difference between a language forum and a political forum. People will want to respond to the political posts and attempt to refute some of the claims (in some cases very harmful claims). Speaking for myself, I never start provocative political threads, but I do respond to what I consider to be harmful claims in the posts of others. (Not all provocative, off-topic remarks are obviously trollish and easily ignorable. There's a range of remarks from the totally wacky to the plausible.)

When I work very hard to refute what others have written -- and in my own opinion succeed -- it's a hard blow to come back to the forum and discover that everything that I write has been deleted. I would have been much happier if the Anglo-Saxon/French discussion (which had been accepted for so long) had merely been moved to the archives, and any attempts to restart it quickly deleted.

Unless things heated up right after I posted, everything appeared to be calming down. In the most recent outburst of arguments two persons on the other side seemed to have stopped responding, and I myself had chosen to let one person's post of several paragraphs go without response. Just a couple of us were still exchanging posts on the controversial topic, and those were short and relatively mild compared with what had gone before -- the perfect time to try to move on to another topic. That's what I was trying to do with some comments about aphoristic writing.
Gjones2   Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:32 pm GMT
I can live with whatever rules there are -- or choose to go elsewhere if I find that I can't -- but it would be helpful if the policies of the forum were better understood. I'm reluctant to invest much time in a forum if I don't know what will happen to my posts.

Finally, looking at the archives, I notice that archiving took place frequently up until June 14, 2005, but not since then. Does this mean that archiving has ceased for this site -- for on-topic discussions too? Even without archiving, I may still wish to participate, but it will affect how much effort I put into my posts.
Sigma   Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:49 pm GMT
Now with the recent deletions I'm beginning to wonder whether I can count on that. I especially have in mind the discussion "Why some people (specially anglo-saxons) hate the french???" The topic itself was obviously in violation of the forum rules, yet the discussion was allowed to go on for a very long time. When that happens, posts good and bad -- on topics both linguistic and non-linguistic -- accumulate. I myself spent many hours contributing posts to that discussion. To see all that work disappear overnight was disappointing.


Estoy de acuerdo con Gjones, posts como : "Why some people (specially anglo-saxons) hate the french???" , "Vive Le Québec Libre", "Latin Europe wake up" puede que no tengan que ver mucho en un principio con discusiones sobre lenguages, pero sin duda a lo largo de las múltiples respuestas buenas y malas podemos darnos cuenta de los puntos de vista de los 2 bando involucrados.

La ventaja de esto es poder conservar la información para futuras referencias como cuando alguien no este de acuerdo en ciertos puntos, pueda consultar las respuestas anteriores en dichos posts, y hay ciertas personas como ponen mucho esfuerzo en contestar con respuestas racionales y respaldadas en información real y veraz.

Considero una injusticia y un ataque directo a la libertad de expresión la eliminación arbitraria de dichos posts.


When I work very hard to refute what others have written -- and in my own opinion succeed -- it's a hard blow to come back to the forum and discover that everything that I write has been deleted. I would have been much happier if the Anglo-Saxon/French discussion (which had been accepted for so long) had merely been moved to the archives, and any attempts to restart it quickly deleted.

Pienso igual, ¿no hay forma de recuperar la información de dicho posts y ponerla en los archivos? para que así ya no sea posible incrementar el número de post en el mismo, pero sea posible ver la información para futuras referencias.
Gjones2   Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:16 pm GMT
I appreciate your remarks, Sigma. Yes, along with the insults and thoughtless exchanges in that discussion, there were worthwhile posts, written by persons from various points of view (and about topics both linguistic and non-linguistic). Over a period of weeks a good many persons dedicated many hours to expressing their ideas -- and not just opinions, some of the posts contained detailed information.

I won't argue with the site's right to determine what kind of material it wants on its forum. I do believe, though, that we need to have a better understanding of what the rules are. When a discussion -- in apparent violation of a rule -- goes on for weeks, we begin to assume that the written rule no longer applies.

As for saving the deleted posts, I don't even know whether the non-deleted discussions will be archived. I would appreciate it if somebody would answer that question.
Geoff_One   Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:39 pm GMT
I am certainly glad that I didn't use up a lot of energy producing long messages for "Why some people (specially anglo-saxons) hate the french???". I do have some sympathy for those who did. Perhaps such topics should be archived and prevented from being reanimated, or say banned for 6 months.
greg   Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:35 am GMT
Sigma : ton pb sur Langcafé est réglé.
greg   Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:39 am GMT
Le plus ridicule — ou le plus lâche, c'est selon — c'est de laisser un sujet monter jusqu'à 1.000 avant de le détruire. Une telle attitude en dit long sur pas mal de choses.
Sigma   Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:50 am GMT
greg: Merci beaucoup
greg   Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:51 am GMT
i De nada ! On te voit bientôt sur Langcafé ?
Sigma   Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:54 am GMT
Biensur que oui. Merci encore une fois
Sigma   Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:21 am GMT
¿Alguien sabe si el post de "Why some people (specially anglo-saxons) hate the french???" se va a recuperar para los archivos de antimoon?

Sería un grave error el perder toda la información que ahí se escribió.

Sander: ¿Tu sabes si mjd puede poner de vuelta ese post para los archivos de antimoon? Claro como un post cerrado totalmente, sin posibilidad de escribir nuevas respuestas, pero al menos para la consulta de las demás personas.
greg   Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:39 pm GMT
Salut mjd. La destruction de « Vos mères sont toutes des putes baisées en Pologne en 39 sur » ne serait pas du luxe. En tout cas elle serait plus justifiéz que celle de « Pourquoi tout le monde (surtout les Anglo-saxons) déteste les Français ? »...
greg   Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:40 pm GMT
Erratum : plus justifiée.
Geoff_One   Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:33 pm GMT
One of the ingredients that helps learning words in another language is emotion. In the thread/topic, "Why some people (specially anglo-saxons) hate the french???", there was plenty of emotion and I believe a number
of messages in French (correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, this thread would have provided anybody who is learning French with the opportunity to enhance their French.