Thinking and Speaking in English Naturally and Automatically

Toto   Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:22 am GMT
I came to Canada when I was 11, 9 years ago, but during the time, I wasn't motivated to try hard to fully acquire the language. What's worse, I always spoke in my native language at home, and, at school, there were some kids who spoke the same native language as mine and I often hung out with them. I regret that I didn't take advantage of my young age at that time. I heard that people who start speaking a language before they're about 9 years old can fully acquire the language like a native speaker. But beyond that age, it's impossible. I hope this is false.

Anyway, I find it difficult to quickly process what to say in English.
My thoughts and feelings are first generated in my native language and I have to translate them to English. I even count numbers in my native language. Of course, I can think and count numbers in English if I try, but it feels unnatural and uncomfortable. Some suggested me to try to think and speak in English whenever possible. I tried it, but it wasn't effective, or I probably did it the wrong way (For example, I wasn't really doing it "whenever possible".)

My pronunciation, however, is clear and easy to understand, according to teachers and friends. For me, this is problematic, because native speakers who meet me for the first time get the impression that I'm very fluent in English. But then, if they have a talk with me, they realize that I have an uneasy time fully expressing myself and having a conversation. This is awkward and embarrassing.

So, what I want to ask is this: How can non-native speakers speak straight from their thoughts off the cuff instead of first translating them and/or preparing what to say in English? Is this possible at all?
beneficii   Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:11 am GMT
Well first, you did not seem to make any grammatical errors in your post, nor did you use any strange word combinations. *

Second, as for the age issue, I believe it becomes harder and less automatic after a certain age and that environmental factors will more often conspire to make it difficult for you, but I don't believe it becomes impossible at any age.

Third, I don't know your pronunciation and about speaking straight off the cuff, but it does become possible to do that in any language, even non-native ones. As for the speed issue, I seem to have the same issue in Japanese, where I slow down. It seems that practice makes perfect in this case, as some people might be slower. Can you listen well?

Fourth, when I was a kid I was hyperlexic (in that I started reading from a very young age), and my parents told me that I had a speech delay, but I would eventually overcome that, and I would becokme a member, for example, of my high school forensics (speech and debate) team. I might just be having the same issue with Japanese and that it just takes me longer to be able to speak comfortably than most people. I don't know about you though.


*though your use of "some suggested me to try..." you did miss the "to" in between the "suggested" and the "me," but I don't know if that was the result of a typo, or perhaps you were changing how you said something--such as having intended to say "some suggested that i try...," but then changing the last part while forgetting to add the "to."
Guest   Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:13 pm GMT
Well, Toto, your writing skills are awesome. I know many of such people who have lived in the USA, still they can not write advanced structures in the language. Though they are fluent in their communication skills. Your problem is not a grave one. You need to immerse yourself if you want to think in another language and forget about using your language. Initially, your will make mistakes in producing a spontaneous speech on the spot but with the passage of time you'll only get better. Total immersion is neccessary. I started English at the age of 18 in my native country in my home environs, no contact with native speakers. I talk myself, I watch movies. I read and write in the language. I am totally immersed in the language. If you can understand my written English then I think I have done a pretty good job at learning the language. I think in the language. I don't translate anything into my native language before speaking in my target language. That's the true indicator of speaking the language fluently -- when you don't depend on your mother tongue anymore. I have been learning the language for 5 years, I still have a problem expressing myself on some occassions so I stll need to accumulate a lot of good input. You will need to do the same if you want to think in the language effortlessly.
Rodrigo (COL)   Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:33 pm GMT
A simple way to practice English before going to bed is 'counting sheep' in English, it makes get more tired and is good practice.
Blackhawk   Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:19 am GMT
I came to Canada when I was 15, and my situation appears to be the exact opposite of Toto's.
On the one hand, I never translate anything into my first language, and I find translation so awkward and unnatural that I have lots of trouble translating simple expressions for my parents. Some things just don't translate, even if I understand them perfectly... On the other hand, I still have a noticeable foreign accent, which has totally screwed up my sense of cultural identity...

[DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!] When I came here, I already spoke some English, and I simply forbade myself to "fall back" to my mother tongue even in situations where it would've been helpful... The reason why I did that is that I noticed how unnatural and "Babelfishy" translated speech can sound, and originally, my objective was to speak like a native... The main problem was that I was past the critical age, and I just didn't have the neural wiring to pick up the language the way little kids do. After a while, I even started identifying with North Americans because I really enjoyed the cultural, and I ended up being oblivious to my linguistic shortcomings... Most people pretended not to notice my accent, and even though I expressed my concerns to a few teachers and counsellors, they just told me a bunch of white lies... At one point, I noticed that certain people, especially other non-natives, sometimes asked me to repeat myself over and over again, but I just blamed it on anxiety and whatnot... It took me quite a while to realize that I don't sound anything like a native speaker, but most people are just too politically correct to say it especially if they see that it might make you nervous. Over the last few years, I've put a lot of effort into making my speech clearer, and I've improved, but unfortunately, I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of losing the accent... or having a "near-native" accent for that matter. And I have yet to get used to seeing myself the way others see me, i.e. as a foreigner... So thinking in English might not be as pleasant as you think it is.
Jasper   Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:19 am GMT
I believe it's possible to think in your target tongue at any age.

I know a woman from Germany who, after many years in America, cannot speak in German anymore fluently. She thinks in English; she says her problem with German is that she "can't think in it anymore". She's in her late 70s now.

The thing is, you must stop--right now, and for years running--speaking in your native tongue. Completely. If your lifestyle doesn't permit this, I don't know if thinking effortlessly in the target language is possible.

I abhor bilingual education in America for this reason. Education in Spanish (or other tongue) makes it harder and harder to master the target tongue. Our society is making language dissimilation easier, unfortunately.
beneficii   Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:45 am GMT
Jasper,

What about Blackhawk's case?
wasi   Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:59 am GMT
Do I lose my native language (accent) if I start thinking in the target language?
beneficii   Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:06 am GMT
wasi,

Not in Blackhawk's case.
Jasper   Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:40 pm GMT
Blackhawk's talking about his accent. That's different from thinking in English.

My German acquaintaince still speaks in a moderately strong accent, although she thinks exclusively in English.
beneficii   Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:46 pm GMT
Hmm, consider this: You want to say something in another language, but you find that you formed the thought in your native language. Then you think, OK, how do I say this in this other language? Well, you start to try to crunch it together and you get something that is unlike what would be found in the other language, though it might be grammatically correct. Then you think, OK, would a native speaker actually say this? Since I don't know what to say, I might as well keep my mouth shut. Then people you're talking with think you're a doofus who doesn't understand their language, so they switch to your language and you never learn.

Language learning is a humbling process with a high rate of failure due to the conspiring environmental factors. I think that if you can't think in the language, then you might as well stay in your home country or slit your lists, so you don't bother everyone with a broken version of that language.
Blackhawk   Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:47 am GMT
One of the environmental factors that has hurt me the most is... well... uhm... white lies! My strategy would've been completely different if I could get at least a few people to be honest with me...

A few people on Antimoon have claimed to have reached the native level because they've been able to "pass for a native". It's hard to believe how far some people can go just to say something nice, especially if they are native speakers. Some of the people I met went as far as to pretend that they thought I was born here...

e.g.
- Are you from here?
- Well... uhm... I wasn't born here, but I've been living here for [X] years.
- Were you born in Ontario?

When I told them the truth, they pretended to be surprised. And quite a few people acted like that.

However, I got numerous "revelations" from other non-natives

e.g.
- When I first met you, I had a hard time understanding you, but by now, I've got used to it.
- Are you from Europe? You have an accent.

Under normal circumstances, I don't get such "revelations" from natives very often, but they do happen... My best shot at explaining this is that as soon as you start sounding a little bit better than foreigners normally do, native speakers start saying you don't have an accent... Believing those lies can lead to an identity crisis, and so far the only "litmus test" I can think of is a perfect "double-blind" experiment (e.g. anonymously posting a sample on a blog with no background info). It's quite possible that some (but not all) of the people on this forum who claimed to be able to pass for a native didn't actually fool anyone.

Whenever I tried to seek help either because I had trouble with oral presentations or because I felt I was only "a few inches short" of nailing the accent, the feedback I got fell into one of the following categories.

a) "You don't have an accent"...
DANG! Not another lie!!!

b) "Montreal is so multicultural... There are lots of people here who only have a fraction of your ability"...
Yes, but... they *live* in their first language

c) The accent is part of you
Well... uhm, I don't even know what to say about this

d) [I got this one from my speech pathologist...]
- You have a foreign accent accent, but I understand you. You don't have a stronger accent than the average fluent second-language speaker. It's unrealistic to aim for more than that. Your problem is stuttering.
(my stutter is very mild, and it "comes and goes")

The other thing is that it's *really* hard to get someone to point out your errors once you're past that "average fluent second-language speaker" level... At one point, I took a pronunciation class, and the teacher kept insisting that my only problem is "sentence focus" (i.e. sentence-level stress patterns).
The speech pathologist, however, said that I am in fact mispronouncing sounds, but she refused to even say which ones... Her first language is French, and she has a (very slight) accent, which gives her yet another reason to tell me that there's no point in trying to fix mine.
But the main reason why my stutter has intensified is that I have a tendency to "backtrack" when I feel I'm not pronouncing something right.
It's frustrating... Don't get me wrong, I don't question her judgment... I'm just slowly working on it...


It wasn't until I started working with the speech pathologist that I realized that I had to quit trying. She also told me not to take any feedback from anyone else, which put an end to my confusion.


Speaking of thinking in the language, I have three different modes of functioning:

1) "Native-like" (process-wise). Natural & fluent... This is usually induced by alcohol or a very relaxed setting.
If I'm in this mode, I feel as if English were my first language, even though it doesn't necessarily stop me from sounding like Borat.

2)
Semi-automatic.

Most of the time, even though I think directly in English, I consciously listen to myself in the background
in order to spot and possibly correct errors.

3) "Paranoid"

This usually happens in stressful situations where I consciously monitor everything I say, and my attempts to correct my own errors result in me making even more mistakes. It's a "chain reaction".
Earle   Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:14 am GMT
Hmmm... I'd just add that the "politeness" factor is indeed a problem. The better you become in a language subsequent to your first, the harder it is to get friends to critique pronunciation, rhythm, and accent. You have to practically beg.
beneficii   Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:37 am GMT
BH,

Try posting a sample here, and I'll critique every little part of it.
beneficii   Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:41 am GMT
There are reports of people changing their accents throughout their life, but all the reports I hear occur in their native languages, but could not the same thing happen in their second language too? Just like the mentioned 42up to 49up accent change (where 42 year-olds changed where they lived and by age 49 their accents had changed)?