Anyone studying Chinese/Japanese?

superdavid   Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:41 am GMT
How do you memorize those thousands of complicated characters?
Not only are they complicated but also lots of characters look so similar!

Are there any effective ways to memorize them?
furrykef   Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:54 am GMT
Yeah, I'm studying Japanese. There's a book called Remembering the Kanji by James W. Heisig. I recommend giving it a shot with Volume 1, which deals with memorizing the characters themselves but not their pronunciations or the contexts you use the characters in. It sounds like a silly way of doing things, but I do believe it is more effective than learning the characters in context, and it's REALLY effective in helping you distinguish similar characters. I recommend using Remembering the Kanji volume 1 in conjunction with SuperMemo. That's what I'm doing. It's a little time-consuming, but it's certainly less time-consuming in the long run than most other methods of learning kanji.

That book is tailored to Japanese and not Chinese, though. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is still no equivalent designed for use in learning Chinese.

- Kef
L'italofilo   Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:00 am GMT
Mandarin Chinese is not that difficult, especially simplified characters.

simplified characters: 中华 汉语 普通话 记忆 复杂

traditional characters: 中華 漢語 普通話 記憶 複雜

But I prefer traditional characters, because it's more reasonable than constrained simplified characters in terms of word-formation.
L'italofilo   Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:18 am GMT
For example, here's an illustration to explain the irrationality of simplified character, in standard Chinese, 麵 only means "noodle", and 面 only means "face", but after fantastic simplification, these 2 different meanings coalesced into one character 面,in fact, there're also so many incorrect simplification methods and some common frameworks have something wrong too.
L'italofilo   Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:20 am GMT
Can simple character understanders read traditional?

Maybe some, but not all, as for me, I can write and understand almost every Traditional Characters, although I'm from Mainland China.
K. T.   Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:28 am GMT
I still recommend "Memento Des Kanji" in French over Heisig (BTDT) or in combination with Heisig. It's a waste to learn characters without their on and kun readings. I know it's in French, but the pictures are available for EVERY Kanji-pictures of what the originators of the language were thinking.

I actually used Heisig (and I have 3 Heisig books), but I was not making progress fast enough, so I buckled down and got "Kanji & Kana" and the workbooks for that book. I finished my study of Kanji MUCH faster thanks to Hadamitzky and Spahn.
K. T.   Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:29 am GMT
Sorry, pictures of what the original Chinese were thinking when they wrote Kanji/Hanzi ...
Guest   Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:35 am GMT
For Japanese at least, I think that the main focus of learning should be on vocabulary words, and the along with them the characters that are used to write them. I think learning single characters without learning the compounds (熟語) that they are used in is a waste of time.
beneficii   Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:45 am GMT
For learning the first few levels of the kanji, I recommend _Kodomo Kanji Jiten_ and _Chibimaruko Chan no Kanji Jiten_.
Guest   Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:49 am GMT
"For Japanese at least, I think that the main focus of learning should be on vocabulary words, and the along with them the characters that are used to write them. I think learning single characters without learning the compounds (熟語) that they are used in is a waste of time."

I agree. I think these dictionaries that I recommended meet that requirement, in that they give you lots of examples using compounds. Additionally, I have a _kokugo jiten_ and _Kodomo Nihongo Jiten_. I also got an _otona no kanji_ book, which I have yet to crack. Additionally, I try to play video games and watch TV (even American shows) and do just about everything in Japanese. Of course, I have to work in a job that uses virtually no Japanese, but I do deal with numbers and when I work them in my head, I try to do it in Japanese.
beneficii   Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:51 am GMT
The previous "Guest" was me. Sorry.
furrykef   Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:14 am GMT
<< It's a waste to learn characters without their on and kun readings. >>

I disagree. I consider learning the kanji to be like learning the alphabet... just a really, REALLY big alphabet.

I don't consider learning on and kun readings in isolation to be particularly useful. Often, they still won't tell you how to pronounce a word in a given context. So when it comes to learning readings, I would prefer to learn words rather than individual kanji readings. Then you basically kill two birds with one stone, since doing so not only teaches you actual words, but you'll still have an idea of how to pronounce unfamiliar compound words.

Why not learn the kanji themselves through words rather than in isolation then? Because it's much easier to learn a kanji word if you already know the constituent kanji. It's more difficult if you have to remember the word AND every detail of the kanji.

- Kef
furrykef   Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:15 am GMT
P.S., thanks for unlocking the thread, Josh. :)
K. T.   Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:02 am GMT
I didn't learn the readings in isolation, Kef. Both books I mentioned give several jukugo examples and space to practice (in the workbooks) with each Kanji. Once I switched to Spahn and Hadamitzy my learning took off. I did about half of Heisig's first book prior to switching.

I lived in Japan and I found Heisig's method to be too slow. I have a friend who just wanted to read Kanji (for understanding, not speaking) and Heisig worked just fine for him. He never learned to speak Japanese, though.
K. T.   Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:09 am GMT
Sorry, the French book gives several examples and the great pictures and "Kanji & Kana" also gives several examples (and space to practice with the workbooks)...

K & K is very organized. You build on what you learn.