english, french & spanish verb systems
<< Actually, you can have a first person plural imperative, which spoken English does most definitely have. >>
You're right, of course, and so does Spanish... it's listed in the conjugation table (amemos). I meant to say "first-person singular imperative", which was marked "N/A" (which means "not applicable" to anybody who may be wondering).
- Kef
<<"allée" is no adjective in "je suis allée". Past participle yes, adjective no.>>
Why not? It inflects like an adjective syntactically.
Hmm. French grammar does indeed do it differently from Spanish grammar.
<< Elles sont alléES voir leur professeur. >>
In Spanish, that sentence would be:
Ellas han ido a ver su profesor.
If Spanish had to inflect the participle for number and gender, it would be "idas". But participles are invariable when used with "haber".
The participle still seems to have some sort of adjectival function in the French sentence, though... compare the literal English translation, "They are gone to see the professor", which still makes some sense, though it isn't idiomatic and the meaning is subtly different.
The closest equivalent to this phenomenon in Spanish that I know of is forming the passive voice with "ser":
Dos personas fueron matadas. ("Two people were killed.")
If agreement weren't necessary, it would be "matado". Anyway, the participle still seems to play an adjectival role... although this construction *looks* similar to the English passive voice, there are many, many restrictions which seem to be due to thinking of the participle as a sort of adjective.
- Kef
« Guest » : « Vrai. The verb in those sentences is "être". Those past participles of "aller" are adjective complements of the verb and their change in form can't be called conjugation. »
Faux. Les formes <allée(s)> & <allé(s)> ne sont en aucun cas des adjectifs puisque, par exemple, les combinaisons suivantes sont irrecevables : *<un cheval allé> & *<trois femmes allées>.
En revanche, l'indicatif passé composé est bien un temps composé — comme son nom l'indique —, ce qui signifie que la composition ]ÊTRE[ + ]ALLER[ forme paradigme.
Ou, plus simplement, comme Jérémy le disait, les formes <allée(s)> & <allé(s)> sont des participes passés. Certains sont adjectivables, d'autres non.
furrykef : « those are only past participles, and I believe they only change for gender when used as adjectives... unless French grammar does it differently than Spanish grammar... »
Un participe passé ***PEUT*** être adjectivé. Mais rien n'est moins sûr : <allée(s)> & <allé(s)>.
Par ailleurs, tout adjectif n'est pas nécessairement un participe passé.
Ce qui suffit à indiquer que la conjugaison française se décline partiellement suivant le genre grammatical.
greg, teniendo en cuenta que no suelo entenderte porque no hablo francés, a veces me pregunto si yo debería responderte en español, que supongo que no entiendes bien...
Me parece que es inútil responderme en un idioma que no hablo, ¿no?
(Translation: greg, considering that I usually don't understand you because I don't speak French, sometimes I wonder if I should respond to you in Spanish, which I presume you don't understand well...
It seems useless to respond to me in a language I don't speak, right?)
Ahh, it'd be fun to play such a silly little game, but it would only make matters worse, so I won't...
- Kef
furrykef : « teniendo en cuenta que no suelo entenderte porque no hablo francés, a veces me pregunto si yo debería responderte en español, que supongo que no entiendes bien... Me parece que es inútil responderme en un idioma que no hablo, ¿no? ».
Ich habe überhaupt kein Problem mit Spanisch. Nicht, daß ich die Sprache von Cervantes mit Bravour beherrsche, aber bin ich bereit mein Bestes zu tun, um deine Prosa auf Spanisch ohne Ächzen und Stöhnen zu lesen.
I can translate that, if you wish.
I'm pretty sure greg can write it in English too.
No, I changed my mind. You two can work it out.
Olvídalo, es inútil...
OK, let's get back on topic.
I realized that I haven't answered the original post. I haven't studied French, but I would guess that the verb systems of English, Spanish, and French are all about equally difficult to deal with in practice. You may need a bit more practice with conjugation tables for Spanish and French, but again I don't think that constitutes a significant effort in the long run.
- Kef
The main differences between the French/Spanish verbs and the English are that: English uses auxiliary verbs to express many tenses, would, could, while in French/Spanish the endings of the verbs change. The other difference is that French/Spanish verbs change with person while in English only the 3rd person singular present changes. Because of this in Spanish it isn't mandatory to state the subject, e.g.
Fuimos a la playa.
(We) went to the beach.
I don't know why, but in French the subject MUST be stated even though the verb conjugation would replace the pronoun.
P.D. Estoy cansado con la manía de los angloparlantes de escribir con mayúsculas los gentilicios, mi mano quedó adolorida de apretar tantas veces shift.
>>I don't know why, but in French the subject MUST be stated even though the verb conjugation would replace the pronoun<<
Yes, isn't it the case that while in some circumstances even English can drop the subject pronoun i.e. 'Will do', French never can?
P.D. Estoy cansado con la manía de los angloparlantes de escribir con mayúsculas los gentilicios, mi mano quedó adolorida de apretar tantas veces shift.
What you write is interesting, but this seems like a funny complaint to me. Perhaps you shouldn't learn German.
Josh a raison. Il suffit de contraster les séries suivantes :
<singe> — /SÃt/ vs <ich singe> — /Z@SÃt/
<singst> — /SÃt/ vs <du singst> — /tySÃt/
<singt> — /SÃt/ vs <er singt> — /ilSÃt/
<singen> — /SÃt/ vs <sie singen> — /ilSÃt/
<singen> — /SÃtÕ/ vs <wir singen> — /nuSÃtÕ/
<singt> — /SÃte/ vs <ihr singt> — /vuSÃte/
<wachse> — /gRÃdi/ vs <ich wachse> — /Z@gRÃdi/
<wächst> — /gRÃdi/ vs <du wächst> — /tygRÃdi/
<wächst> — /gRÃdi/ vs <er wächst> — /ilgRÃdi/
<wachsen> — /gRÃdis/ vs <sie wachsen> — /ilgRÃdis/
<wachsen> — /gRÃdisÕ/ vs <wir wachsen> — /nugRÃdisÕ/
<wachst> — /gRÃdise/ vs <ihr wachst> — /vugRÃdise/.
Mais les 3e personnes masculines (sg & pl) des verbes du type /SÃte/ demeurent confondues → /ilSÃt/ alors qu'elles s'opposent pour les verbes du type /gRÃdiR/ → /ilgRÃdi/ (sg) vs /ilgRÃdis/ (pl).
Well, I did learn something from your post, g.