Cumbric-Revival or survival

Liam   Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:19 pm GMT
Is there any chance of this taking off, or is it literally the amount of time it takes for everyone to forget about it?
Scott Lough   Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:00 pm GMT
I don't think Cumbric will ever be forgotten, as it was the mother tongue of this ancient northern land. It was the other language in England, after death. Although many records have been lost, I bet there is enough raw materials to revive the language, with sufficient support. This is largely depending on the interest of the public.
P.S. I recommend you speak to Kevin O'Leary
cumbric   Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:46 pm GMT
cumbric was spoken all over northern england, thanx to the large rhegged kingdown, but that was inavded so it died out
Adam   Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:38 pm GMT
It will never be revived because hardly anyone knows how it was spoken.
Adam   Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:49 pm GMT
Cumbric language

Evolution and Extinction



Cumbric was the Brythonic Celtic language centred in Cumbria, and spoken from lowland Scotland south to Derbyshire until about the 11th century. Cumbric was once referred to as North Welsh and Cornish as South Welsh.

The distinction of the Old Brittonic dialects into separate languages begins in about the 5th century, and Cumbric was most likely dead by the 11th century(though extinction dates as late as the 13th century have been suggested) However, in this time, it is possible that it was moving further away from Welsh grammatically, and developing as a distinct, non-intelligible tongue. It is possible that at its height, Cumbric was spoken by around 30,000 people.

The biggest problems with modern-day knowledge of the language lies with the fact that the language may have been merely a dialect of Welsh, not distinct at all. The old northern British kingdoms of Rheged and Gododdin spoke Old Welsh, but given time, many linguists consider that this tongue was distinguishable from Old Welsh at the time of its demise.


Linguistic Evidence

Although the language is long extinct it appears traces of its vocabulary persisted into the modern era. In the 19th and 20th centuries sheep counts and children's counting rhymes which are possibly derived from Cumbric were collected throughout northern England: eg Yan, Tan, Tethera, Methera, Pim compared to Old Welsh "Un, Dou, Tri, Petwar, Pimp".

More concrete evidence of Cumbric exists in the place-names of the extreme northwest of England and the South of Scotland, the personal names of Strathclyde Britons in Scottish, Irish and Anglo-Saxon sources,and couple of Cumbric words surviving into the mid-Middle Ages in South West Scotland as legal terms.

Much of the origin and character of the Cumbric language remain a mystery. Apart from several insignificant Latin observational texts and place names, the language is today undocumented. What is known is that the language was Brythonic Insular Celtic, most likely descended from Old North Welsh, related to the presumed Brythonic Pictish language, and progressively more distantly, to Cornish. Due to its location, words of Gaelic and Scandinavian origin may have enriched the language.


Reconstructions

Reconstructed cognates in the language only number around 50, and the Celtic Culture of Northwest England has long since been forgotten. Despite this, several forms of "Revived" Cumbric are in their infancies. One is noted to be very similar to Old Welsh, while the other re-creates a hypothetical, distinct language representing what the language may have been like today had it never died out. The internet will no doubt provide a valuable resource for the "revival" of these languages.

about.com
Adam   Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:50 pm GMT
"Cumbric was the Brythonic Celtic language centred in Cumbria, and spoken from lowland Scotland south to Derbyshire "

So the Counties from Cumbria down to Derbyshire aren't a part of England - that includes my Lancashire and cities such as Manchester!

My God.
Jonathan Simcock   Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:24 pm GMT
Just what is the evidence for the survival of Cumric in Derbyshire until the 11th century?
Are there any written sources that can be verified? I came across a reference to landowners in North Derbyshire being identified as Welsh /Cumbric speakers in doomsday book, but the facsimile I have of the Doomsday makes no such mention I can identify. Are there other sources?
Place name evidence does suggest some sort of survival Crich, Pentrich, Derwent, Dove, Mam Tor, Ecclesbourne, Axe Edge, Goyt are all derbyshire place and rivernames with a celtic lingual connection but is there anything more?
Jonathan Simcock
AJ   Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:27 pm GMT
Adam,

I don't follow your logic - Cumbric was spoken across northern England so those places cannot therefore be part of England? All of England spoke a Brythonic language until the Teutonic migrations - how does this fit into your logic?
Rick Johnson   Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:13 pm GMT
<<I don't follow your logic - Cumbric was spoken across northern England so those places cannot therefore be part of England? All of England spoke a Brythonic language until the Teutonic migrations - how does this fit into your logic?>>

Something illogical from Adam- that's a first!!
Sarah   Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:38 am GMT
I think it's such a shame that Cumbric has died out. It's also a shame that there aren't any books about the language. I'm sure that there are people out there who would be really interested in learning it! I would!
Robin   Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:03 am GMT
<<<I think it's such a shame that Cumbric has died out. It's also a shame that there aren't any books about the language. I'm sure that there are people out there who would be really interested in learning it! I would! >>>

Is it really a shame that these languages have died out?

Surely, the world be a much happier place if people all spoke the same language?

I know that people would invent new languages, even if there was only one universal language, so I am not arguing for a universal language. I just don't agree with Sarah. I think that languages dying out, is quite a reasonable thing to happen.

Bye for now
AJ   Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:14 am GMT
I don't know necessarily that we won't see a revised version of Cumbric. Of course, any language that was revived would be based largely on supposition. What is needed is a group of people dedicated to reviving the language, even recreating something. It will never be as the language was spoken a thousand years ago, but it is something that can be claimed as such. Even Hebrew has been recreated in parts. If one creates a language based on old Welsh and mixes it with the traces of Cumbric which survive in northern/Scottish placenames, then something distinct would be born; a common counting form, uniting the various versions of 'shepherd speak' into a single counting system, would also be a great starting point. The last point would be convincing the Cumbrian people to warm to the idea of embracing this language. With it could come a revival in the wearing of tartan - a practice that surely cannot've died off TOO long ago in Cumbria, and something still practised in neighbouring Northumbria - to compliment Cumbrian wrestling and the growing Celtic awareness in the county.
So, who would be willing to start 'reviving' Cumbric?
Nick   Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:59 am GMT
Has anyone 'official' attempted to revive Cumbric - eg an academic, someone in local government, etc? Or is there a society dedecated to it? That might be the way to start.
Adam   Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:31 pm GMT
Cumbric was a Celtic language that was spoken in England from an area stretching from where Cumbria is today to as far south as Derbyshire.

If it's revived, will people in Cumbria and Derbyshire and the counties inbetween where it was also spoken (such as Lancashire) say that they should be independent from England as they speak their own Celtic language?

This is just another piece of proof that Cornwall really is no different from other English counties, as all these counties from Cumbria to Derbyshire also had their own Celtic language.
Adam   Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:43 pm GMT
Also, Scottish Gaelic may have borrowed several Cumbric words:


"Scottish words of possible Cumbric origin

It is not always easy to distinguish possible Pictish loanwords from those of Cumbric. They have been borrowed into both Lowland Scots and Scottish Gaelic, but because Gaelic is also a Celtic language, it would have shared much vocabulary with Cumbric anyway. Although the presence of such words is one factor that differentiates Scottish and Irish Gaelic.

Bach - cowpat (cf Welsh bawch, Gaelic buadhar)
Baivenjar - mean fellow (Welsh bawyn)
Brat - an apron in Welsh, and the same in Gaelic. Found in Yorkshire
Brogat - a type of mead (Welsh bragod - also found in Chaucer)
Coble - small flat bottomed boat (also North East England), akin to Welsh ceubal and Latin caupulus
Crag - rocks (either from Brythonic craig or Goidelic creag)
Croude - type of small harp, as opposed to clarsach (Gaelic Cruit, Welsh Crwth)
Croot - a small boy (Welsh crwt, Gaelic cruit, "someone small and humpbacked")
Galnes - weregeld, or fine for homicide (Welsh galanas)
Linn - pool in river; waterfall (either from Brythonic llyn or Goidelic linne)
Lum - Well known Scottish word for chimney, ?Welsh llumon
Peat - probably from Brythonic for "piece" (Welsh peth "thing" vs. Gaelic cuid "part")
Pen - pointed conical hill (Gaelic beinn probably of Pictish origin[citation needed])
Poll - a pool (Brythonic pwll, Goidelic poll)
Vendace - fish of Lochmaben, probably cognate with Gwyniad


Today, Cumbric is still used in many parts of Northern England, especially Cumbria, by farmers to count sheep.

Although the language is long extinct it is arguable that traces of its vocabulary persisted into the modern era. In the 19th and 20th centuries sheep counts and children's counting rhymes which are possibly derived from Cumbric were collected throughout northern England and southern Scotland: eg Yan, Tan, Tethera, Methera, Pimp compared to Old Welsh Un, Dou, Tri, Petwar, Pimp. Whether these counting systems bear any relation to the Brittonic dialects spoken in the region is a matter of some debate. It has been argued that these numerals were introduced to England by Welsh shepherds or monks during the medieval period. The fact that some have also been collected outside of the region in which Cumbric was spoken may indicate that they were a later introduction from Wales, or, less probably that they are part of a wider celtic sub-stratum. It is also possible that the counting systems were preserved in the Cumbric speaking region then exported into neighbouring areas.

More concrete evidence of Cumbric exists in the place-names of the extreme northwest of England and the South of Scotland, the personal names of Strathclyde Britons in Scottish, Irish and Anglo-Saxon sources, and a few Cumbric words surviving into the High Middle Ages in South West Scotland as legal terms.

From this scanty evidence, little can be deduced about the singular characteristics of Cumbric, not even the name its speakers used to refer to it. What is known is that the language was Brythonic Insular Celtic, descended from Old North Welsh, related to the presumed Brythonic Pictish language, and to Cornish and Breton. Due to its location, it is likely that Goidelic and Scandinavian loan-words were incorporated into the language before its demise.




Counting Systems of Possible Cumbric Origin

Keswick (Cumbria)

1 - Yan
2 - Tyan
3 - Tethera
4 - Methera
5 - Pimp
6 - Sethera
7 - Lethera
8 - Hothera
9 - Dovera
10 - Dick

Westmorland (Cumbria)

1 - Yan
2 - Tyan
3 - Tetherie
4 - Peddaera
5 - Gip
6 - Teezy
7 - Mithy
8 - Katra
9 - Hornie
10 - Dick


Eskdale (Cumbria)

1 - Yaena
2 - Taena
3 -Teddera
4 - Meddera
5 - Pimp
6 - Hofa
7 - Iofa
8 - Seckera
9 - Leckera
10 - Dec


High Furness (Cumbria)

1 - Yan
2 - Taen
3 - Tedderte
4 - Medderte
5 - Pimp
6 - Haata
7 - Slaata
8 - Lowera
9 - Dowa
10 - Dick


Wensleydale (North Yorkshire)

1 - Yan
2 - Tean
3 - Tither
4 - Mither
5 - Pip
6 - Teaser
7 - Leaser
8 - Katra
9 - Horna
10 - Dick