Spelling pronunciations

Gabriel   Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:33 pm GMT
I’ve just had one of those embarrassing moments that completely give you away as a foreigner, no matter how hard you’ve tried to perfect your English or how long you’ve studied it. I was familiar with the word “lapel” (the folded part of a coat or jacket) but I must have had my first encounter with the word in writing. Somehow an incorrect spelling pronunciation */“leIp@l/ fossilized in my brain, and (since it’s not a word I hear or use very often) was never corrected! I was surprised to find out (only today, after being studying English for two decades!) that the correct pronunciation is /l@”pEl/ or /l{“pEl/. I’m comforted by the thought that this sometimes happens to native speakers (granted, with more rare words such as Wells’ example of “inventory” pronounced /In”vEntri/). Has any other advanced learner had a similar experience (or a native speaker, for that matter)?
K. T.   Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:44 pm GMT
Oh sure, it's happened to me a couple of times as an adult.
K. T.   Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:54 pm GMT
You have to get over it, Gabriel. That's the only thing to do. I've said hilarious things in Japanese by mistake. I made a Japanese baker fall on the floor laughing once, I think. I hear stories about foreigners who messed up words in English and then they feel terrible and brood over it.

DO NOT DO THIS!

I asked for directions in French (in Montreal) when I was a teenager. I said the wrong article and was corrected, but I was NOT given the information. I could have hated all French speakers for that snobby reply, but I don't. I just realized that I had to speak French correctly.

It's a learning experience. If someone teases you about this, cooly change the subject every time.
furrykef   Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:52 pm GMT
Funny, I was thinking about this just last night. Though I'm a native speaker, I hadn't heard the word "commodity" spoken aloud until a month or two ago, and I was surprised to hear that it's spoken with an open "o" sound, closer to "com-MAH-dih-tee" than "com-MOH-dih-tee". I was thinking maybe both were correct, but I looked it up and the dictionary only listed the "ah" pronunciation. Last night I heard the word again and I realized I still have the incorrect pronunciation etched in my brain. The wrong pronunciation still makes more sense to me.

- Kef
Travis   Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:14 pm GMT
I myself used to have a lot of words that I did not know the right pronunciations to, due to having learned very many words through seeing them in text rather than having actually heard them spoken. The matter is, though, that English pronunciation can really only be learned from hearing it or from seeing it transcribed, as the orthography generally only gives one the ability to make an educated guess at a given word's pronunciation.
M56   Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:45 pm GMT
<Though I'm a native speaker, I hadn't heard the word "commodity" spoken aloud until a month or two ago, and I was surprised to hear that it's spoken with an open "o" sound, closer to "com-MAH-dih-tee" than "com-MOH-dih-tee". >

Isn't it an /ma:/ sound in AE?
Travis   Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:59 pm GMT
General American has /A/, not /a:/, for such, so it would actually be /mA/. [a] is only found in North American English dialects under the influence of the NCVS (from /A/), dialects under the significant influence of the California Vowel Shift or the Canadian Vowel Shift (from /{/), or from the synchronic monophthongization of /aI/. Furthermore, General American does not have any vestigial phonemic vowel length associated with vowel quality. Consequently, one would normally not mark vowel length in phonemic transcriptions of it, unlike most English English dialects.
Guest   Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:05 pm GMT
In the past I've had trouble with:

numismatics, shillelagh, Qatar, catarrh, Schaghticoke, Kayaderosseras, Skaneateles
Lazar   Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:07 pm GMT
Well just to be picky, [a] also occurs in Eastern New England for historical /A:/, and in Southeastern New England for historical /A:/ and /Q/.
greg   Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:40 am GMT
Josh Lalonde : « Likewise, in French, I've been saying 'fosse' as /fOs/, but I recently found out it's supposed to be /fos/, just like 'fausse'. It happens to us all. »

Rassure-toi, beaucoup de Français prononcent /fOs/ pour <fosse> & <fausse>. Dans la France méridionale, /fos/ est pratiquement inusité (à part chez les "immigrés" septentrionaux). Les Méridionaux "de souche" disent généralement /fose/ pour <fossé> & <fausser>.
Davidab   Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:29 pm GMT
<I thought for a long time that 'innovative' was pronounced /In"Q:v@tIv/.>

It's pronounced /In"Qv@tIv/ or /In"Ov@tIv/ in UK varieties
Gabriel   Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:23 pm GMT
....In other words, if you otherwise sound fine, you probably still came off like a native speaker.
Gabriel   Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:34 am GMT
<<It's pronounced /In"Qv@tIv/ or /In"Ov@tIv/ in UK varieties>>

What UK varieties do you mean, Davidab? For RP, LPD gives

/"In@UveItIv/ 52%
/"In@Uv@tIv/ 42%
/I"n@Uv@tIv/ 6%

BTW, the last Gabriel ("....In other words, if you otherwise sound fine, you probably still came off like a native speaker") was not me.
Franco   Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:51 am GMT
I once had misunderstanding, I said

"Where is the beach" loudly, but it sounded like "bitch", ha ha.