*looks left, looks right*
*shifty eyes*
*shifty eyes*
The Grand Pre-Outputlian Input Hypothesis
<It also depends on how you handled that input and stuff. You know? Like, you know? >
Some input I might have understood better than others but still 200(let's reduce the hours) hours of listening coupled with 150 hours of reading would have been enough for me to hold a decent conversation in real life. But that is not the case. All of this thinking (speaking before taking in a lot of input) has blocked my mouth muscles and they preclude me from speaking on the spot. I am physcologically incarcerated. I think you can always get back to your reading and listening activities in order to enhance the amount of your input for language acquistion. But for God's sake start speaking as soon as possible otherwise your tongue will always feel hesitated. To be honest, no spoken skills were emerged(the way Krashen suggested or that AWL) even I was talking in a lot of input silently. I have been learning the langauge for 5 years on my own with no contact with native speakers. Whenever I have got an opportunity to do so, I am forced to repeat myself by them. Simple. The best way to learn a language is to move to a country where your target language is spoken. And I notice from my experience is that listening to a person in real life is different from listening to them on TV. My retention and comprehension of the message is better if I listen to a person face to face in my target language. Did Krashen suggest minimum requirement of silent reading or listening? Or Should we go on and on till our deathbeds without praticing the language in real life?
Some input I might have understood better than others but still 200(let's reduce the hours) hours of listening coupled with 150 hours of reading would have been enough for me to hold a decent conversation in real life. But that is not the case. All of this thinking (speaking before taking in a lot of input) has blocked my mouth muscles and they preclude me from speaking on the spot. I am physcologically incarcerated. I think you can always get back to your reading and listening activities in order to enhance the amount of your input for language acquistion. But for God's sake start speaking as soon as possible otherwise your tongue will always feel hesitated. To be honest, no spoken skills were emerged(the way Krashen suggested or that AWL) even I was talking in a lot of input silently. I have been learning the langauge for 5 years on my own with no contact with native speakers. Whenever I have got an opportunity to do so, I am forced to repeat myself by them. Simple. The best way to learn a language is to move to a country where your target language is spoken. And I notice from my experience is that listening to a person in real life is different from listening to them on TV. My retention and comprehension of the message is better if I listen to a person face to face in my target language. Did Krashen suggest minimum requirement of silent reading or listening? Or Should we go on and on till our deathbeds without praticing the language in real life?
I agree. You have to speak and speak a lot. Also you have to write. It is the only way to put your input to test.
And then you learn from your mistakes. Certainly, the more input you have, better it is, but you have to have simultaneous output because this is where real learning takes place.
Anyway, how the hell do native speakers learn their language, by listening and nothing else? Come on, it's a living thing, learning a language is just a part of life. You give, you take, you make mistake...
Oh, another thing, nobody posts here as Guest, it's just what happens when you leave the name box empty. Why not writing your name, that is another story. Personally, I do not think name is of any importance.
And then you learn from your mistakes. Certainly, the more input you have, better it is, but you have to have simultaneous output because this is where real learning takes place.
Anyway, how the hell do native speakers learn their language, by listening and nothing else? Come on, it's a living thing, learning a language is just a part of life. You give, you take, you make mistake...
Oh, another thing, nobody posts here as Guest, it's just what happens when you leave the name box empty. Why not writing your name, that is another story. Personally, I do not think name is of any importance.
I agree with you, Guest. Developing and reinforcing bad habits is a myth projected by Antimoon's creators. Going on passively with no active use of language for me is a boring experience and sorry I can't wait that long for my communication to emerge. I'll use the language actively(perfect or not), in return, I'll accumulate more of it (just like I did after reading your post). The thing is, I agree with this line of thought: "learning a language is just a part of life." I can not wait for many years(silently/passively) so that the end result might be perfect.
Exactly.
Not only is "going on passively with no active usage of language" boring, it's absolutely pathetic!
And how about this: "Life doesn't wait for you."
Not only is "going on passively with no active usage of language" boring, it's absolutely pathetic!
And how about this: "Life doesn't wait for you."
In that case, where are antimoon.com's theory's defenders? I know I am not up to the task: Let us wait for the others to arrive, if they ever will.
Well, for one thing, the antimoon.com method is less passive than many people make it out to be, as it necessitates taking control of one's own language learning.
<< Developing and reinforcing bad habits is a myth projected by Antimoon's creators. >>
A myth? Debunked by whom?
- Kef
A myth? Debunked by whom?
- Kef
furrykef,
Where were you before? This thread was almost immediately dominated by people who did not want to even consider this, by people who were completely opposed to any related idea as well.
Where were you before? This thread was almost immediately dominated by people who did not want to even consider this, by people who were completely opposed to any related idea as well.
<A myth? Debunked by whom? >
beneficii says that, my English is perfect. So here is news for you. I did not study silently on my own for years and years on end. I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning while composing emails and speaking but they had never become permanent in nature. My point is simple that you can't speak openly if you have a timid nature because of being a perfctionist and not making mistakes. Tom says that don't speak if you tend to make mistakes and where he is wrong. And that myth is coming from there. Once you make mistakes and you reinforce them. On what evidence he says such a thing that you reinforce them and then you can never eliminate them?
Have you ever seen a spider climbing on the wall? She climbs, falls down, again clmbs, then falls down again....with persistence on her part she reaches her destination. She never aimed for perfection right from the beginning.
She followed a natural course of action...i.e trial and error.
I am going to make mistakes, no doubt, I'll study more in the language, and overcome them with the passage of time. But I can't sit for years silently just to see my language skills emerge like a native speaker.
beneficii says that, my English is perfect. So here is news for you. I did not study silently on my own for years and years on end. I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning while composing emails and speaking but they had never become permanent in nature. My point is simple that you can't speak openly if you have a timid nature because of being a perfctionist and not making mistakes. Tom says that don't speak if you tend to make mistakes and where he is wrong. And that myth is coming from there. Once you make mistakes and you reinforce them. On what evidence he says such a thing that you reinforce them and then you can never eliminate them?
Have you ever seen a spider climbing on the wall? She climbs, falls down, again clmbs, then falls down again....with persistence on her part she reaches her destination. She never aimed for perfection right from the beginning.
She followed a natural course of action...i.e trial and error.
I am going to make mistakes, no doubt, I'll study more in the language, and overcome them with the passage of time. But I can't sit for years silently just to see my language skills emerge like a native speaker.
I agree with beneficii's ideas about input-output. As a non-native speaker, I've learned that the only way we could sound like a native speaker is to imitate or reproduce phrases that native speakers actually may use or have used, and NEVER say a phrase or use a word that you feel are never used by them. But how do you develop such instinct? - through plenty of input from native speakers. Some phrases produced by non-natives sound un-native as far as native speakers are concerned even if they're grammatically correct. This is how I know texts written by natives from texts written by non-natives even though I'm a non-native speaker.
I think what Antimoon suggested was that our output should, as best as we can, be correct after getting massive input. But i don't recall having heard Antimoon saying we shouldn't start practicing before we're perfect. So, I agree with Guest about doing input and output simultaneously but only after massive input.
But with beneficii's theory, there is one problem. how and where could we get all the English language input needed for all situations or contexts if we wanted to speak or write native-level English in all situations especially if we don't live in an English-speaking country or don't have anybody to talk to?
I think what Antimoon suggested was that our output should, as best as we can, be correct after getting massive input. But i don't recall having heard Antimoon saying we shouldn't start practicing before we're perfect. So, I agree with Guest about doing input and output simultaneously but only after massive input.
But with beneficii's theory, there is one problem. how and where could we get all the English language input needed for all situations or contexts if we wanted to speak or write native-level English in all situations especially if we don't live in an English-speaking country or don't have anybody to talk to?
<< But I can't sit for years silently just to see my language skills emerge like a native speaker. >>
I don't remember anywhere on the Antimoon site saying that you have to wait years before speaking.
I have to admit I don't fully follow Antimoon's method myself. I place a much higher priority on input than output, but I still write e-mails to my friends in Spanish (the language I'm learning) and sometimes I do use constructions which I'm not certain of. However, I keep the basic principles in mind and if I'm too uncertain about correctness, I either rephrase or I ask on wordreference.com about what I want to say. I think it's a good compromise... I still can't speak Spanish, only read and write it, but I think that's merely a matter of practice. Probably a lot of difficult practice, but you'll have to do it one way or another anyway...
I certainly don't think that "developing and reinforcing bad habits is a myth", though. Most foreign speakers have obvious bad habits. Not all of them, but most. I have a pen pal in Mexico who always inserts the definite article where he shouldn't: "I will go to the school", "I need to study the psychology". The corresponding Spanish sentences would indeed use the article, but English does not use them here. It's an understandable mistake, but I always correct him, explaining why the article should be omitted, and sometimes see the same mistake a few days later, even with the same word in the same context. I'm a bit worried that he's not taking it seriously and he might still be saying things like "I will go to the school" five years from now. He'll be understood, but he'll sound pretty silly.
- Kef
I don't remember anywhere on the Antimoon site saying that you have to wait years before speaking.
I have to admit I don't fully follow Antimoon's method myself. I place a much higher priority on input than output, but I still write e-mails to my friends in Spanish (the language I'm learning) and sometimes I do use constructions which I'm not certain of. However, I keep the basic principles in mind and if I'm too uncertain about correctness, I either rephrase or I ask on wordreference.com about what I want to say. I think it's a good compromise... I still can't speak Spanish, only read and write it, but I think that's merely a matter of practice. Probably a lot of difficult practice, but you'll have to do it one way or another anyway...
I certainly don't think that "developing and reinforcing bad habits is a myth", though. Most foreign speakers have obvious bad habits. Not all of them, but most. I have a pen pal in Mexico who always inserts the definite article where he shouldn't: "I will go to the school", "I need to study the psychology". The corresponding Spanish sentences would indeed use the article, but English does not use them here. It's an understandable mistake, but I always correct him, explaining why the article should be omitted, and sometimes see the same mistake a few days later, even with the same word in the same context. I'm a bit worried that he's not taking it seriously and he might still be saying things like "I will go to the school" five years from now. He'll be understood, but he'll sound pretty silly.
- Kef
<<I don't remember anywhere on the Antimoon site saying that you have to wait years before speaking.<<
Try here:
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/2002/41.htm
Tom: "I am learning German. I attended German classes (4 hrs a week) for four years. I absolutely refuse to open my mouth, and I would react with shock if a teacher asked me to write a composition on a specific subject.
I only write short e-mail messages. It takes me 30 minutes to write 8 sentences. I try to verify my sentences with Google and with dictionaries. I leave my thoughts unspoken, whenever writing them would exceed my ability."
Read it all.
Try here:
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/2002/41.htm
Tom: "I am learning German. I attended German classes (4 hrs a week) for four years. I absolutely refuse to open my mouth, and I would react with shock if a teacher asked me to write a composition on a specific subject.
I only write short e-mail messages. It takes me 30 minutes to write 8 sentences. I try to verify my sentences with Google and with dictionaries. I leave my thoughts unspoken, whenever writing them would exceed my ability."
Read it all.
Guest,
You have to remember that he said he was not receiving sufficient input in the classroom environment (nor out of it apparently) to start speaking German. He was making a point about how the approach used in those classes has the person speaking right off the bat, and he admitted he had to speak to pass the class. It's not at all the same sort of situation like with Antimoon's method.
You have to remember that he said he was not receiving sufficient input in the classroom environment (nor out of it apparently) to start speaking German. He was making a point about how the approach used in those classes has the person speaking right off the bat, and he admitted he had to speak to pass the class. It's not at all the same sort of situation like with Antimoon's method.
The Other Guest (or maybe the same one),
You speak English fine and naturally. I detect no errors in your writing. Maybe the method did work after all, and you're just not giving it the credit it deserves?
You speak English fine and naturally. I detect no errors in your writing. Maybe the method did work after all, and you're just not giving it the credit it deserves?