Whom...

M56   Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:09 pm GMT
<"To whom/who it may concern:" >

You'll find that in many modern business contexts, either of those would sound quite staid and/or pretentious. I'd advise students to find alternatives.
furrykef   Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:47 pm GMT
<< <<<The dictionary *there using is eleven years old, >>>

:-/ >>

Ack. I hate that mistake as much as you do. I think I wanted to say "The dictionary there is eleven years old", then after the first three words my mind changed it to "The dictionary they're using..."

In any case, I most definitely know the difference between "there" and "they're", don't worry. ;)

- Kef
Guest   Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:55 am GMT
People don't like WHOM (Who did you call?), people don't like Subject pronouns (Me and Jane went shopping, This is her, It's us)...
Damian in London E14   Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:48 am GMT
"Whom" seems to be dying a death really.....like it's gone out of fashion.

As for the misuse of "me" - as in "me and my friend went up to town last night" - although clearly wrong in a strict gammatical sense it seems to be gaining ground in daily use more and more, especially down here! Probably the use of "I" instead of me, although correct, maybe considered "pretentious"....a language is forever in a state of change. It's stupid really - I mean, look at it this way - if it was just you alone, you would never say "me went up to town last night" would you? Or maybe you would - who knows. You may just speak a form of pidgin English - or be an East Enders fan. Me not too keen on that crap....me has never seen such a bunch of miserable muppets in all my sweet life as those who live in mythical Walford. :-) Someone "dahn 'ere" told me that Walford is modelled on Walthamstow, "aht there in East Landan". Who cares.
Guest   Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:55 am GMT
"me went up to town last night" would you? Or maybe you would - who knows. You may just speak a form of pidgin English - or be an East Enders fan.''


me went up to town and
me thinks

are normal in some dialects of English

the same people would find ''between you and I'' or ''it's for you and I'' correct too
Guest   Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:39 am GMT
<"Whom" seems to be dying a death really.....like it's gone out of fashion. >

There's evidence that it is making a resurgence, actually.
Guest   Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:57 am GMT
>>Someone "dahn 'ere" told me that Walford is modelled on Walthamstow, "aht there in East Landan"<<

If that's, then why is 95% of the cast white and English?
Damian in London E14   Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:29 pm GMT
***If that's, then why is 95% of the cast white and English?***

A question best answered by the producers of the soap opera......maybe the area around the Queen Vic is a "White English Enclave!". :-) I don't watch East Enders - just read about it and see occasional episodes. It's true - you hardly ever see an "ethnic non Brit" knocking about "Walford" do you? Do you suspect a form of racisim in E20? (E20? Actually there is no such postcode district in London so it fits the non existent Walford). Walthamstow itself is E17. South Woodford is E18 and that's the end of the Eastern postcode districts. After that you're out of Greater London and into Essex where the IG codes take over.

Right now i'm a wee bit home sick for EH12.....
Guest   Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:17 pm GMT
>>Do you suspect a form of racisim in E20? <<

Well, I'm afraid I do a bit. True there are non-white characters, but they tend to be somewhat peripheral and not that often involved in the major storylines. On the other hand when a police officer or social worker is called for in the story, they are almost always balck or Asian.

As for nationality, they did make a token effort recently with a brief storyline involving Polish manual labourers.

And as for your fellow Scots, they don't fare too well do they? The only Scottish character I can think of who has appeared recently is Trevor, one of the most eveil characters ever to appear in the soap.

I guess this is veering off the topic of language a bit, so maybe I will bring it back by asking wondering what it is about the lovely Scottish brogue that is associated with evil in English minds ;)
furrykef   Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:30 pm GMT
<< People don't like WHOM (Who did you call?), people don't like Subject pronouns (Me and Jane went shopping, This is her, It's us)... >>

"Me and Jane went shopping" is on a completely different level than "Who did you call?"... I would NEVER say "Me and Jane went shopping", but I would never say "Whom did you call?" because it sounds hilariously pedantic. (I perfectly understand why it "should" be whom rather than who, but the fact is, nobody speaks that way, so I feel that neither should I.) "Jane and I went shopping" sounds perfectly normal to me. I think Travis once said it sounded very artificial to him, but it doesn't to me.

Also, "This is her" versus "This is she" is also a different issue. People will say things like "This is he" when answering the phone, but hardly anybody on Earth -- not even the strictest grammar teachers -- would point to a photograph and say "That is he!" No, they would say, "That's him!" If you say "That is he", people would look at you as if you were nuts. Probably because you would be. ;) There's a much stronger argument for doing away with using the subject pronouns altogether than for using them all the time in these constructions.

- Kef
Gwest   Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:18 pm GMT
<I would NEVER say "Me and Jane went shopping",>

What would you answer here?

Who broke that window?

a. I
b. Me
c. I did
Rickieeeeeeeeee   Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:26 pm GMT
Is da inhabitants of Walthamstow all miserable-like and relations to each other?. Init.
Travis   Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:29 pm GMT
>>"Me and Jane went shopping" is on a completely different level than "Who did you call?"... I would NEVER say "Me and Jane went shopping", but I would never say "Whom did you call?" because it sounds hilariously pedantic. (I perfectly understand why it "should" be whom rather than who, but the fact is, nobody speaks that way, so I feel that neither should I.) "Jane and I went shopping" sounds perfectly normal to me. I think Travis once said it sounded very artificial to him, but it doesn't to me.<<

The main thing is that "Jane and I went shopping" seems artificial, but at the same time I have heard it so much that I am used to it despite its artificial-sounding-ness. It still, though, sounds more natural than "Whom did you call", which sounds very formal, to say the least; even then, I will on occasion speak like that when speaking formally.

>>Also, "This is her" versus "This is she" is also a different issue. People will say things like "This is he" when answering the phone, but hardly anybody on Earth -- not even the strictest grammar teachers -- would point to a photograph and say "That is he!" No, they would say, "That's him!" If you say "That is he", people would look at you as if you were nuts. Probably because you would be. ;) There's a much stronger argument for doing away with using the subject pronouns altogether than for using them all the time in these constructions.<<

The matter is that present-day English does not use nominative predicate nouns but rather oblique predicate nouns, despite what some prescriptivists might say. Of course, this change applies to practically all of English except for some limited retentions that some still have such as "This is he", which should be regarded more as frozen phrases than actual productive forms. Of course, such frozen phrases have been in part propagated by prescriptivist types who have insisted on them for whatever reason.
furrykef   Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:48 am GMT
<< What would you answer here?

Who broke that window?

a. I
b. Me
c. I did >>

Either B or C. Why do you ask?

- Kef
Gwest   Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:39 am GMT
<Either B or C. Why do you ask? >

What would be the "full" form of your answer in b.?