Despite romance languages descend from a corruption of the Latin language, conventions are made to establish the proper usage of languages, and according to some conventions Brazilian is not proper Portuguese. Of course they can clam that they follow another norm. It's just a question of common agreement between the users of a certain language. For example, the Spanish speakers across the entire world accept that "Me se ha perdido el reloj" is improper Spanish, but if a certain community established that the personal pronoun "me" must precede the reflexive pronoun "se", it would end up being a prescriptive norm accepted by them and thus proper Spanish .
Brazilians speak Spanish
Well, according to Encyclopaedia Britannica Brazilians find Latin American Spanish easier to understand than Continental Portuguese. Argentinians and Brazilians can communicate quite effortlessly unlike Portuguese and Spanish (many times Spanish say they cannot understand Continental Portuguese).
Brazilians learn English and Spanish as foreign languages at school.
Brazilians learn English and Spanish as foreign languages at school.
-Despite romance languages descend from a corruption of the Latin language, conventions are made to establish the proper usage of languages, and according to some conventions Brazilian is not proper Portuguese. Of course they can clam that they follow another norm.-
You cannot stop the language changes.
Portuguese is a corruption of Latin, and Brazilian Portuguese is a corruption of Portuguese. Brazilian Portuguese does have rules, but they are different than the modern Continental Portuguese rules. Brazilian Portuguese is closer to medieval/classical Portuguese, and it was influenced by Amerindian and African languages. Brazilian usage has become stronger and stronger since its entrance in literature (Brazilian modernists fought for a Brazilian language, different from Portuguese, and this problem is still discussed over and over again...) It is quite normal (and expected) to use Brazilian syntax and word order in Brazil although it is incorrect according to Continental Portuguese rules...No Brazilian would ever say AMO-TE to his/her loving soul, it's either EU TE AMO or EU AMO VOCÊ (I love you). Force of usage.
You cannot stop the language changes.
Portuguese is a corruption of Latin, and Brazilian Portuguese is a corruption of Portuguese. Brazilian Portuguese does have rules, but they are different than the modern Continental Portuguese rules. Brazilian Portuguese is closer to medieval/classical Portuguese, and it was influenced by Amerindian and African languages. Brazilian usage has become stronger and stronger since its entrance in literature (Brazilian modernists fought for a Brazilian language, different from Portuguese, and this problem is still discussed over and over again...) It is quite normal (and expected) to use Brazilian syntax and word order in Brazil although it is incorrect according to Continental Portuguese rules...No Brazilian would ever say AMO-TE to his/her loving soul, it's either EU TE AMO or EU AMO VOCÊ (I love you). Force of usage.
Yes we can, the Spanish Academias collaborate with each other to prevent American Spanish to diverge from Spaniard Spanish and they are quite effective considering that a Spaniard understand what a Mexican says quite effortlessly. I suspect that there is not collaboration enough between Brazil and Portugal to establish a common norm to stick with. Also a good education system prevents languages to diverge, because those changes are many times consecuence of bad educated people speaking their language carelessly.
All I know is Brazilians speak perfect French just like the Portuguese.
I don't want to offend anybody but I think Brazilian portuguese is a simplified version of Portuguese, (I mean from a morphological point of view) Both verb tenses and personal pronouns are much easier in Brazilian. I agree with whom was talking about a sort of creolization of Brazilian portuguese. If European Portuguese is probably the hardest latin language, Brazilian tends to be the easiest.
My mother tongue is not Portuguese anyway
My mother tongue is not Portuguese anyway
<<I don't want to offend anybody but I think Brazilian portuguese is a simplified version of Portuguese, (I mean from a morphological point of view) Both verb tenses and personal pronouns are much easier in Brazilian. I agree with whom was talking about a sort of creolization of Brazilian portuguese. If European Portuguese is probably the hardest latin language, Brazilian tends to be the easiest. >>
I agree with Guest here.
Portuguese went a process of simplification from Latin to Vulgar Latin to Portuguese.
Brazilian Portuguese is just continuing a process that has been going on for at least two millenia now.
English also morphologically has gone much simpler over the centuries now, but it's not worse than Old English with a relativelly more complicated grammar.
It is a normal evolution of a living language; a sign that the language is living and developing.
Some "dead" language won't go through the same evolution.
I agree with Guest here.
Portuguese went a process of simplification from Latin to Vulgar Latin to Portuguese.
Brazilian Portuguese is just continuing a process that has been going on for at least two millenia now.
English also morphologically has gone much simpler over the centuries now, but it's not worse than Old English with a relativelly more complicated grammar.
It is a normal evolution of a living language; a sign that the language is living and developing.
Some "dead" language won't go through the same evolution.
Wow, the Brazilians speak Spanish, perfect French and who knows, maybe even Chinese. I wish they spoke at least decent Portuguese.
<< Además, que un idioma cambie no quiere decir que se pone inferior. >>
Hmm, I wonder if I used the subjunctive correctly in the above sentence. It sounded right at the time, but the more I thought about it, the less it sounded right.
<< I don't want to offend anybody but I think Brazilian portuguese is a simplified version of Portuguese, (I mean from a morphological point of view) >>
I agree that it's simplified. My argument is that simplifying things does not necessarily make them worse. A simplified language can still be perfectly expressive. In fact, usually, when a complete language is simplified, it's the things that DON'T help expressiveness that get removed.
<< Wow, the Brazilians speak Spanish, perfect French and who knows, maybe even Chinese. I wish they spoke at least decent Portuguese. >>
Hmm, that's funny, I seem to recall saying this:
"As soon as you can demonstrate what exactly makes Brazilian Portuguese inferior, maybe I'll care. Until then, I'll think you're a snob worthy of contempt."
So unless you can demonstrate such inferiority, with all due respect, SHUT UP.
- Kef
Hmm, I wonder if I used the subjunctive correctly in the above sentence. It sounded right at the time, but the more I thought about it, the less it sounded right.
<< I don't want to offend anybody but I think Brazilian portuguese is a simplified version of Portuguese, (I mean from a morphological point of view) >>
I agree that it's simplified. My argument is that simplifying things does not necessarily make them worse. A simplified language can still be perfectly expressive. In fact, usually, when a complete language is simplified, it's the things that DON'T help expressiveness that get removed.
<< Wow, the Brazilians speak Spanish, perfect French and who knows, maybe even Chinese. I wish they spoke at least decent Portuguese. >>
Hmm, that's funny, I seem to recall saying this:
"As soon as you can demonstrate what exactly makes Brazilian Portuguese inferior, maybe I'll care. Until then, I'll think you're a snob worthy of contempt."
So unless you can demonstrate such inferiority, with all due respect, SHUT UP.
- Kef
<<<< Además, que un idioma cambie no quiere decir que se pone inferior. >>
Hmm, I wonder if I used the subjunctive correctly in the above sentence. It sounded right at the time, but the more I thought about it, the less it sounded right. >>
Well, Kef, even though I had no trouble getting the meaning (and you generally speak - or type - very good Spanish) I would have put it like this:
"Además, que un idioma cambie no quiere decir que se vuelva inferior."
If you prefer to retain the original "poner" then the appropriate form of the verb would be "ponga".
Hmm, I wonder if I used the subjunctive correctly in the above sentence. It sounded right at the time, but the more I thought about it, the less it sounded right. >>
Well, Kef, even though I had no trouble getting the meaning (and you generally speak - or type - very good Spanish) I would have put it like this:
"Además, que un idioma cambie no quiere decir que se vuelva inferior."
If you prefer to retain the original "poner" then the appropriate form of the verb would be "ponga".
One thing is the natural evolution of a language and another one is the degradation of the Portuguese language because of lazy and uneducated people in Brazil. Why do you think that American English didn't suffer a process or creolization? Because there was and is a decent education system which teachs proper English, despite the slight differences between American and British English, so the Americans can undestand Shakespeare. Nobody in US will tolerate their language to diverge from British English to the point of being unable to understand Shakespeare's works and the Portuguese language in Brazil deserves the same thing because it is a prestigious language too.
<<Why do you think that American English didn't suffer a process or creolization? >>
Some folks over in the UK do think that US English has degenerated quite a bit over the last few centuries. Either that, or it failed to adopt some of the advances and refinements now found in modern British English. The end result is that American English is a lot less prestigious than UK English.
Some folks over in the UK do think that US English has degenerated quite a bit over the last few centuries. Either that, or it failed to adopt some of the advances and refinements now found in modern British English. The end result is that American English is a lot less prestigious than UK English.
Rather than Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese growing further apart, I believe that in this specific day and age Eur. Port. is growing towards Brazilian Port. This because Portugal is inundated with 'novelas', musicas e Brazilian immigrants.
<<One thing is the natural evolution of a language and another one is the degradation of the Portuguese language because of lazy and uneducated people in Brazil.>>
I agree, Brazil being a developing country cannot provide with a decent educacion system to ALL of its population, and it was even worse in the past, since all the african inmigrants couldn't speak anything but vulgar portuguese.
I agree, Brazil being a developing country cannot provide with a decent educacion system to ALL of its population, and it was even worse in the past, since all the african inmigrants couldn't speak anything but vulgar portuguese.
<<en lugar de estropear las grandes idiomas del patrimonio humano. >>
Deliciosamente irónico. Quizás tu debas hablar tu propio idioma en lugar de estropear LOS grandes idiomas del patrimonio humano.
Deliciosamente irónico. Quizás tu debas hablar tu propio idioma en lugar de estropear LOS grandes idiomas del patrimonio humano.