If I was born? If I had been born?

Cleveland   Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:04 pm GMT
We all know that the fixed term about born for the meaning of giving a birth should be "Was born" , but I am wondering how to make subjunctive for this specific use correctly, should I be

If I was born in the USA, I could be a XXX now
If I was born in the EU, it would have been like that
or

If I had been born in the USA, I could have been a XXX now
If I had been born in the EU, it would have been like that

the reason I am asking this is because of the term of "was born" is always in the past tense, if I am using subjunctive, should it be always in a past tense? I can't remember clearly, but I think Iv heard them both.
Cleveland   Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:06 pm GMT
oops fund something wrong there, just to make it correct.

We all know that the fixed term about born for the meaning of giving a birth should be "Was born" , but I am wondering how to make subjunctive for this specific use correctly, should It be

If I was born in the USA, I could be a XXX now
If I was born in the EU, it would be like that
or

If I had been born in the USA, I could have been a XXX now
If I had been born in the EU, it would have been like that

the reason I am asking this is because of the term of "was born" is always in the past tense, if I am using subjunctive, should it be always in a past tense? I can't remember clearly, but I think Iv heard them both.
Travis   Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:14 pm GMT
The thing is that it would be "were born" not "was born" in the past subjunctive (which is what you'd be using with "if" here). However, there are many English dialects (particularly English English dialects) which have lost the the subjunctive and replaced it with the indiative, which would use "was born" in this particular case.
furrykef   Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:08 pm GMT
I would say "If I were born...". But, as Travis said, many will say "If I was born..." But I believe "If I had been born..." should work as well.
Travis   Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:23 pm GMT
I would also say "If I were born...", and it should be noted that the subjunctive is rather well-preserved in North American English dialects, it being largely English English dialects and like which use "If I was born...".
Cleveland   Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:41 pm GMT
I believe that the usage of "if I had been born" should be the correct grammatical way. But If I use "I had been born" in daily bases, don't you think It would be little bit long and odd? I am always sick of it! flawless English is not a easy thing to achieve LOL.
Milton   Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:44 pm GMT
I think it should be ''If I had been born (in 1980...)'' because you say ''I was born (in 1980)'' and not ''I am born (in 1980...)'' like in Italian (Sono nato nel 1980 = I am born in 1980). In German it is easier because different verbs are used: werden vs sein so you can tell when the word used is pure adjective and when it's participle.
Guest   Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:52 pm GMT
"If I was born...." sounds really bad in AE and sounds like AAVE.
Cleveland   Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:34 am GMT
yes Milton
but the point is that in English you couldn't possibly say "I am born" in most of situations, because when you are able to say this, you ought to have already been several years old at least, so it should always be "was born", it's why it confuses me a lot. I really did hear somebody said "if I was born....it would be" but the grammatical way to use this should be "if I had been born...it would have been" and because of the general usage of "born" is always "was born" so the adjunctive should always be "If I had born...it would have been". hope I expressed my point here. and my question is that

why people always say "If I was/were born, It would be" for a fixed "always past tense" word.
furrykef   Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:10 am GMT
<< I think it should be ''If I had been born (in 1980...)'' because you say ''I was born (in 1980)'' and not ''I am born (in 1980...)'' like in Italian (Sono nato nel 1980 = I am born in 1980). >>

I don't understand why that would require the pluperfect. There's no reason that the past subjunctive couldn't be used for the past as well as the present.

- Kef
Cleveland   Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:20 pm GMT
according to a book called "English Grammar in use" the subjunctive form for present is:

I know you are heart, I will go to see you ------> If I knew... I would...

For past is:

I knew you were heart, so I went to see you ---------> If I had known, I would have gone to see you

it's nothing to do with pluperfect, it's a fixed term to make subjunctive for the sentences in past tense. But born is always used in past tense, so there came my question, "should I always follow this rule for born, that means should I always say If I had been born?"

Or the book is wrong?
Travis   Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:03 pm GMT
That's not really the subjunctive at all; I am not sure what the people who wrote that book were smoking when they wrote that section.

Rather, English has two subjunctives, the present subjunctive and the subjunctive. (Note that they are named for their similarity to the present and past indicative tenses.) The present subjunctive is marked for all normal verbs in the third person singular and for the verb "be", but similar unmarked usage patterns can also appear. For normal verbs in the third person singular it is marked by only using the verb stem for the third person singular, and for "be" it is marked just with "be" rather than using the normal conjugation of "be". Examples of its usage include things like:

"The machine can be rebooted, need be."
"It is best that he not eat the green cheese."
"Do not give the kid the potassium, lest he drop it in the beaker of water."
"Be it on fire or not, we can always throw it always overboard."

The past subjunctive is only marked for "be", but similarly you can see clearly past subjunctive usage patterns for other verbs, particularly modal verbs. It is marked for "be" with "were" regardless of the number of the subject. Examples of its usage include things like:

"I would have to start living off of toxic unnatural crap, if my favorite natural foods store were knocked down and replaced with a Walmart."
"Were he to open the car right now, the door would be sheared off by the truck passing us."
"We can always have Calvin bail out, should the coaster wagon veer towards the edge of the cliff."
Guest   Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:10 pm GMT
I prefer say, "If I am borned in USA, I be XXX now."
Cleveland   Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:15 pm GMT
wow that's a lot of differences to compare the "Subjunctive" Iv learned from that book, and they say it's the best book, the book is published by Cambridge, and writer is Raymond Murphy.
Cleveland   Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:26 pm GMT
but I think the examples youv posted there

"The machine can be rebooted, need be."
"It is best that he not eat the green cheese."
"Do not give the kid the potassium, lest he drop it in the beaker of water."
"Be it on fire or not, we can always throw it always overboard."

are not really subjunctive... so by your opinion how to make there two sentences different?

1:present
Your friend got hit by a car today and you didn't know about this, so when people call you to let you know he is in the hospital right now that you might say:

Really? oh my god, If I knew this, I would go to see him, I will be right there in a minute.

2:Past
but several years after, when you remember this thing, you tell your friend
You know, when you got hit by that car, I was in my garage doing repair stuff, and was not able to pick up phone calls, If I had known about this, I would have gone to see you.

this is suggested by that book.