A minor correction: Regions in which people said "cantao" don't say "cantado" after 60 years.
LL and Y distinction
<< despite LL/Y distinction has diminished since then, people who still distinguish LL from Y are still the majority in Northern Spain. >>
Well, perhaps if you count the bunch of old people in Northern Spain, sure, eventually the distinguishers are still in the majority numerically.
Among the young Northern Spaniards you can hardly find this distinction.
Well, perhaps if you count the bunch of old people in Northern Spain, sure, eventually the distinguishers are still in the majority numerically.
Among the young Northern Spaniards you can hardly find this distinction.
No, the Spanish king pronounced Callas, not Cayas. As I guessed, you can't even distinguish LL from Y. Don't worry, even some native speakers can't do it, but people with better trained ears will clearly perceive that the King said CaLLas.
Here is a link in which the author describes the recent situation of Yeismo in Spain:
http://recursos.cenice.mec.es/lengua/profesores/eso1/textos/elle.htm
Since you don't understand Spanish very well , I'll translate some paragraphs:
"Regarding to yeismo in Spain, this phenomenon is spreaded in Southern Spain . Despite of this, yeism does not occur uniformly...
In South Spain, Madrid, a portion of Avila and most of Castilla La Mancha are yeista, despite almost the entire provinces of Guadalajara , Cue
nca and Albacete (excluding the city of Albacete) are NOT YEISTA...
...Yeismo is spreaded virtually in all Andalucia, but there are NON YEISTA islands in Huelva, Sevilla, Cordoba, Malaga, Granada and Jaen.
In Extremadura, Yeismo is completely spreaded in the province of Badajoz but neraly absent in the province of Caceres, exlcuding those comarcas (like counties in English) bordering to yeista provinces.
In the northern half of Spain. the distinction between LL and Y is MORE FREQUENT
... In Galicia, Basque Country, Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands, people speak other languages in which they distinguish LL from Y, so they do so when they speak SPANISH.
"
Here you are, LL is predominant in a huge part of Spain, this sound is not DEAD.
Here is a link in which the author describes the recent situation of Yeismo in Spain:
http://recursos.cenice.mec.es/lengua/profesores/eso1/textos/elle.htm
Since you don't understand Spanish very well , I'll translate some paragraphs:
"Regarding to yeismo in Spain, this phenomenon is spreaded in Southern Spain . Despite of this, yeism does not occur uniformly...
In South Spain, Madrid, a portion of Avila and most of Castilla La Mancha are yeista, despite almost the entire provinces of Guadalajara , Cue
nca and Albacete (excluding the city of Albacete) are NOT YEISTA...
...Yeismo is spreaded virtually in all Andalucia, but there are NON YEISTA islands in Huelva, Sevilla, Cordoba, Malaga, Granada and Jaen.
In Extremadura, Yeismo is completely spreaded in the province of Badajoz but neraly absent in the province of Caceres, exlcuding those comarcas (like counties in English) bordering to yeista provinces.
In the northern half of Spain. the distinction between LL and Y is MORE FREQUENT
... In Galicia, Basque Country, Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands, people speak other languages in which they distinguish LL from Y, so they do so when they speak SPANISH.
"
Here you are, LL is predominant in a huge part of Spain, this sound is not DEAD.
Here is a link to the famous video in which the King says "por qué no te Callas to Hugo Chavez".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Kzbo7tNLg
Of course Chavez would had said CAYAS because he is yeista and not as cultured as the Spanish King. In fact they say that he is illiterate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Kzbo7tNLg
Of course Chavez would had said CAYAS because he is yeista and not as cultured as the Spanish King. In fact they say that he is illiterate.
<< Here you are, LL is not DEAD. >>
Who ever said that it is dead??
"More frequent" doesn't mean that it's in the majority and that it's not receding.
Your problem, which I find ridiculous, is imagining that LL-Y distinction is possessed by cultured people.
But you can believe what you want.
In fact, I find it quite entertaining.
Whenever I need a good laugh, I just need to read the posts of the contender of "distinction = cultured". :D
Who ever said that it is dead??
"More frequent" doesn't mean that it's in the majority and that it's not receding.
Your problem, which I find ridiculous, is imagining that LL-Y distinction is possessed by cultured people.
But you can believe what you want.
In fact, I find it quite entertaining.
Whenever I need a good laugh, I just need to read the posts of the contender of "distinction = cultured". :D
"More frecuent does notmean that it's in the majority"
Why not?
The fact that yeismo is spreading is true, but you , or someone else said that LL sound will become extint. Let me doubt it because there are solid non yeista zones in Spain. Even more, in the south there are non yeista islands despite being hundreds of years isolated by bigger , surrounding yeista zones. About LL as a sign of culture, this is my personal opinion, you can believe what you want, it's all subjective, but take into account that RAE members , the King, famous and awarded writers, are not yeista.
Why not?
The fact that yeismo is spreading is true, but you , or someone else said that LL sound will become extint. Let me doubt it because there are solid non yeista zones in Spain. Even more, in the south there are non yeista islands despite being hundreds of years isolated by bigger , surrounding yeista zones. About LL as a sign of culture, this is my personal opinion, you can believe what you want, it's all subjective, but take into account that RAE members , the King, famous and awarded writers, are not yeista.
<< No, the Spanish king pronounced Callas, not Cayas. As I guessed, you can't even distinguish LL from Y. Don't worry, even some native speakers can't do it, but people with better trained ears will clearly perceive that the King said CaLLas. >>
You're the one who is imagining that the King pronounced LL as LL.
Get out of your imaginary world before it's too late, querido!
I have trained ears and I can clearly distinguish LL from Y.
You're the one who is imagining that the King pronounced LL as LL.
Get out of your imaginary world before it's too late, querido!
I have trained ears and I can clearly distinguish LL from Y.
You'll agree with me that if the King does not say Callas, he does not say CaYas either, because the sound of Y is more recognizable and he didn't pronounce this sound. I guess that you can't perceive true LLs clearly, but he said Callas.
<< you , or someone else said that LL sound will become extint. >>
I never said that.
<< take into account that ... , the King, ... , are not yeista. >>
Train your ear before you make such a statement, dear Emperor.
I hope you like your new clothes! ;D
I never said that.
<< take into account that ... , the King, ... , are not yeista. >>
Train your ear before you make such a statement, dear Emperor.
I hope you like your new clothes! ;D
<< I guess that you can't perceive true LLs clearly, but he said Callas. >>
Well if you believe that the King said LL there, no wonder that you perceive the people who pronounce LL as Y as making a distinction..
Well if you believe that the King said LL there, no wonder that you perceive the people who pronounce LL as Y as making a distinction..
The king didn't say CaYAs but CaLLas,are you kidding? You need medical help for you ear's problems.
Guest, escribías:
" In Galicia, Basque Country, Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands, people speak other languages in which they distinguish LL from Y, so they do so when they speak SPANISH."
Lo que dices es exacto, aunque deberías excluir a Galicia de la cuenta. En Galicia el yeismo está consumado desde hace décadas. Un profesor de gallego me decía que han renunciado a reintroducir este fonema el gallego de sus alumnos.
El yeismo se encuentra, en portuguès, en las Azores, y en muchas partes del Brasil. En italiano, en el habla popular de Roma.
En catalán (Cataluña, Valencia y Baleares) es excepcional, connotado como incorrecto y, en todo caso, propio del lenguaje infantil. No quiero decir que no exista, debido a la fuerte inmigración del sur de España que durante décadas nos llegó, pero socialmente está estigmatizado y, desde luego, las estaciones de radio y televisión nunca admitirán a locutores que no sepan distinguir ambos fonemas.
Pero es que hay mas:
Algunos mensajes recibidos en este foro señalan, muy acertadamente, que la "ll" italiana (grafiada "gl-") es más "doble" que la catalana, española (cuando se conserva) y portuguesa. Exacto.
Pero el caso es que, en catalán, existen las dos variantes (italiana y española o portuguesa, para entendernos) de "ll", con funciones pertinentes.
Como supongo sabéis, la geminación se marca, en catalán, anteponiendo una "t" a la consonante geminada (con excepción de "l·l", "ele geminada" que encontramos en "col·legi"): "cotna", "setmana", ", pronunciadas "conna", "semmana".
Pues bien, la "ll" portuguesa o española (del español cuidado) aparece en palabras como "palla", "calla", "fulla", "bulla", etc.
Mientras que la "ll italiana, geminada" (quaglia, aglio) se encuentra en palabras como "guatlla" (codorniz), "ratlla" (raya), "butlla" (bula), etc.
Como se ve, una cosa es "bulla" y otra "butlla".
He observado que, en el proceso de adquisición del lenguaje por parte de los niños (me refiero catalanoparlantes) el último fonema que dominan es la "ll". Alguna dificultad deberá presentar, no lo sé, porque para mi y para la gente que he interrogado son tan naturales y simples como "r", "s" o "t".
Como profesor de catalán, he tenido algunos alumnos de origen andaluz que se declaran "absolutamente incapaces" de aprender a pronunciar la "ll" correctamente. Me dicen "no puedo". Con su permiso, y con la ayuda de adminículos "ad hoc", les he examinado el interior de la boca y no me parece que presenten nunguna diferencia orgánica respecto a nosotros (lo digo en broma, aunque sea realidad).
Dicho sea de paso, el yeismo se consumó en francés en el siglo XVIII (en la capital), y me consta que en nungún momento nadie ha intentado reintroducirla en palabras como "caille", "fille", "seuil", "feuille".
Es un tema harto interesante.
" In Galicia, Basque Country, Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands, people speak other languages in which they distinguish LL from Y, so they do so when they speak SPANISH."
Lo que dices es exacto, aunque deberías excluir a Galicia de la cuenta. En Galicia el yeismo está consumado desde hace décadas. Un profesor de gallego me decía que han renunciado a reintroducir este fonema el gallego de sus alumnos.
El yeismo se encuentra, en portuguès, en las Azores, y en muchas partes del Brasil. En italiano, en el habla popular de Roma.
En catalán (Cataluña, Valencia y Baleares) es excepcional, connotado como incorrecto y, en todo caso, propio del lenguaje infantil. No quiero decir que no exista, debido a la fuerte inmigración del sur de España que durante décadas nos llegó, pero socialmente está estigmatizado y, desde luego, las estaciones de radio y televisión nunca admitirán a locutores que no sepan distinguir ambos fonemas.
Pero es que hay mas:
Algunos mensajes recibidos en este foro señalan, muy acertadamente, que la "ll" italiana (grafiada "gl-") es más "doble" que la catalana, española (cuando se conserva) y portuguesa. Exacto.
Pero el caso es que, en catalán, existen las dos variantes (italiana y española o portuguesa, para entendernos) de "ll", con funciones pertinentes.
Como supongo sabéis, la geminación se marca, en catalán, anteponiendo una "t" a la consonante geminada (con excepción de "l·l", "ele geminada" que encontramos en "col·legi"): "cotna", "setmana", ", pronunciadas "conna", "semmana".
Pues bien, la "ll" portuguesa o española (del español cuidado) aparece en palabras como "palla", "calla", "fulla", "bulla", etc.
Mientras que la "ll italiana, geminada" (quaglia, aglio) se encuentra en palabras como "guatlla" (codorniz), "ratlla" (raya), "butlla" (bula), etc.
Como se ve, una cosa es "bulla" y otra "butlla".
He observado que, en el proceso de adquisición del lenguaje por parte de los niños (me refiero catalanoparlantes) el último fonema que dominan es la "ll". Alguna dificultad deberá presentar, no lo sé, porque para mi y para la gente que he interrogado son tan naturales y simples como "r", "s" o "t".
Como profesor de catalán, he tenido algunos alumnos de origen andaluz que se declaran "absolutamente incapaces" de aprender a pronunciar la "ll" correctamente. Me dicen "no puedo". Con su permiso, y con la ayuda de adminículos "ad hoc", les he examinado el interior de la boca y no me parece que presenten nunguna diferencia orgánica respecto a nosotros (lo digo en broma, aunque sea realidad).
Dicho sea de paso, el yeismo se consumó en francés en el siglo XVIII (en la capital), y me consta que en nungún momento nadie ha intentado reintroducirla en palabras como "caille", "fille", "seuil", "feuille".
Es un tema harto interesante.
Furthermore, in Balearic Islands, Catalonia, Valencia, Basque Country and Galicia, native Spanish speakers who are not yeista preserve better the LL sound because of the contact with Catalan or Basque speakers, at least this is what the author says in this link:
http://recursos.cnice.mec.es/lengua/profesores/eso1/textos/elle.htm
http://recursos.cnice.mec.es/lengua/profesores/eso1/textos/elle.htm