Is English grammar harder than Dutch

K. T.   Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:46 am GMT
I wrote the above and forgot to put my "nick" again.
K. T.   Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:50 am GMT
If you are a non-native speaker of Dutch, have you ever been taken for a Dutch person? What shibboleths do you know?

Josh, if this is too off-topic, please delete this.
Travis   Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:47 am GMT
>>Even though linguists always seem to point to Frisian or just Dutch as the language closest to English, I find the sounds of German to be easier (perhaps for the reasons you suggest?)... <<

Yes, Dutch is closer to English than German. It is just that Dutch has had some phonological influence from Oïl languages that both English and German lack (specifically the loss of aspiration), while there have been sound changes in English and German which are unrelated but which have just coincidentally had similar results. The changes in question are specifically:

ME = Middle English
ENE = Early New English
NE = =New English
POHG = pre-Old High German
OHG = Old High German
MHG = Middle High German
ENHG = Early New High German
NHG = New High German

ME [i:] > ENE [@I] > NE [aI]
ME [u:] > ENE [@U] > NE [aU] (not all dialects; those which fronted ME [o:] generally lack this shift)
ME [e:] > ENE [i:]
ME [o:] > ENE [u:] (not all dialects; some fronted or diphthongized ME [o:])

MHG [i:] > NHG [aI]
MHG [u:] > NHG [aU]
MHG [y:] > ENHG [2Y] > NHG [OY] (most dialects)
POHG [e:] > OHG [ia] > MHG [i@] (> NHG [i:])*
POHG [o:] > OHG [ua] > MHG [u@] (> NHG [u:])*
POHG [o:] > OHG [ua] + umlaut > MHG [y@] (> NHG [y:])*

* Most southern High German dialects do not have these final monopthongizations
Travis   Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:00 am GMT
I should give the equivalent Standard Dutch changes, which are

PWG = proto-West Germanic
EMD = Early Middle Dutch
MD = Middle Dutch
ND = New Dutch

MD [i:] > ND [Ei]
EMD [u:] > MD [y:] > ND [9y]
PWG [u:] + umlaut > MD [y:] > ND [9y]
PWG [e:] > MD [i@] > ND [i:]
PWG [o:] > MD [u@]? > ND [u:]

Clearly, the final results of these shifts is further from English than those in High German, but at the same time, the actual course these changes took was actually closer to that in High German than in English.
Guest   Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:54 am GMT
That being said, the Dutch enjoy an amazing ability to speak foreign languages absolutely accent free. I've known a number of Dutch who came to France to make a career — within a couple of months they could speak like a native Parisian. I've met others in Germany: no one could speak Munich, Hamburger or Berliner etc. slang like they did.

Not in Italian, Even though they can generally speak Italian better than English or Germans do, Dutch always retain an accent
Guest   Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:33 pm GMT
>>Yes, Dutch is closer to English than German<<

This sentence shows how ambiguous English can be. I assume you must mean

'Dutch is closer to English than German is' and not 'Dutch is closer to English than it is to German'
guest   Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:04 pm GMT
<<Even though linguists always seem to point to Frisian or just Dutch as the language closest to English, I find the sounds of German to be easier (perhaps for the reasons you suggest?)... >>

Plattdeutsch is closer to English than Dutch is (--on the continent that is. Frisian dialects first, then PlattD.). Of all the languages of the Low Countries, Dutch/Flemish/Afrikaans are the most distant from English.

<<It is just that Dutch has had some phonological influence from Oïl languages that both English and German lack >>

I was recently in Europe on vacation and heard a Dutch radio broadcast. Hearing the announcer speak Dutch and listening to the music reminded me of French (actually hearing it was kinda funny as I am native English speaking and fluent in Hoch Deutsch--at times it sounded English, other German lol)--words were identifiable as between English and German, but the 'sound' of it was like French--Parisian French. I have always thought that this was due to Franconian influence on Oïl rather than the other way around (Dutch is a modern Frankish dialect).

honest question: How do we know for sure which way the influence went?
Guest   Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:38 pm GMT
<<The fact that almost all other Germanic languages have aspiration of fortis consonants makes it pretty likely that it was Romance to Dutch influence rather than the other way around. >>

What about an isolated incident or just coincidence?
Why must this be an influence from one to another? Is there any substantial evidence to show this conclusively? Or is it just a guess?
guest   Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:43 pm GMT
I was just referring to the 'sound' of Dutch and French in general, not specifically to one aspect like the aspiration of fortis consonants.
Travis   Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:06 pm GMT
>>Plattdeutsch is closer to English than Dutch is (--on the continent that is. Frisian dialects first, then PlattD.). Of all the languages of the Low Countries, Dutch/Flemish/Afrikaans are the most distant from English.<<

The order of closeness to English as other West Germanic languages go is probably this:

English
Scots
Frisian languages (including West Frisian, North Frisian, and Saterland/East Frisian)
Low Saxon
East Low German
Low Franconian (including Dutch, Afrikaans, and West Flemish)
Rhine Franconian (including Limburgish)
Middle German
Upper German (including Alemannic and Austro-Bavarian)
Travis   Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:08 pm GMT
>>I was just referring to the 'sound' of Dutch and French in general, not specifically to one aspect like the aspiration of fortis consonants.<<

IMHO, the lack of aspiration is probably the biggest thing that separates Dutch from English and German sound-wise - German really has much more English-like fortis plosives than those in Dutch, which do sound more French-like...
K. T.   Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:28 pm GMT
"Not in Italian, Even though they can generally speak Italian better than English or Germans do, Dutch always retain an accent "

Hmmm, what do you notice that gives them away?
K. T.   Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:43 pm GMT
What specific words or kinds of words betray speakers of German in Dutch or speakers of Dutch in Italian (if there are any.)...
Guest   Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:45 pm GMT
I don't know about Dutch speakers speaking other languages, but those who know Spanish have an obvious accent.
K. T.   Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:04 pm GMT
A lot of people who speak other languages have accents. I just mention the Dutch because they "seem" to speak languages well and without a distracting accent (in English, anyway).