Spain and Portugal are globally irrelevant countries regardless if whether on not they join...
Italian & Portugese Lexical Similarities
"Rather than an Iberian union I believe that it would be better for the Spaniards a kind of an estrategic alliance with Italy so these mediterranean countries would gain weight withing the European Union. Spain and Italy have similar GDP per capita and shared interests."
Which shared interests? Italy and Spain have both reached a similar level of development. But while Italy is lethally indebted and has been struggling for years with a zero growth, Spain is one of the fastest growing economies in Western Europe and enjoys a sound financial situation. Which makes the Italians understandably jealous.
"Economically, Portugal and Spain together would be a global powerhouse. "
I also think so. Large parts of Spain aren't any wealthier than Portugal after all. Thanks to Spain's impressive dynamics and good organization, Portugal could take full advantage of an Iberian federation and become the Catalonia of the West Coast.
Just my two cents.
(I'm neither a Spaniard nor a Portuguese BTW)
Which shared interests? Italy and Spain have both reached a similar level of development. But while Italy is lethally indebted and has been struggling for years with a zero growth, Spain is one of the fastest growing economies in Western Europe and enjoys a sound financial situation. Which makes the Italians understandably jealous.
"Economically, Portugal and Spain together would be a global powerhouse. "
I also think so. Large parts of Spain aren't any wealthier than Portugal after all. Thanks to Spain's impressive dynamics and good organization, Portugal could take full advantage of an Iberian federation and become the Catalonia of the West Coast.
Just my two cents.
(I'm neither a Spaniard nor a Portuguese BTW)
"...Thanks to the European Union the Spanish companies already can invest freely in Portugal..."
I would rather say that thanks to the then richer countries of the forerunner of the European Union, i.e. the European Economic Community, Spain received a disproportionally strong financial support. Thus, a great deal of money was injected in the then broken spanish economy. That was the decisive step for Spain's recovery from its condition of backward, underdeveloped country.
And the portuguese vocals of this forum (in case they are really portuguese) must be joking or raving in delirium with that absurd idea of the Iberian Union. How can you affirm such ridiculous things that the Portuguese and Spaniards are so similar to each other? If you mean this serious, then you must be very superficial or ignorant. To which Spaniards are you comparing? To the Basques? To the rich Catalonians? Or to the Andalusians? Or may be you mean the Galicians? If Spaniards and Portuguese are so similar and so close (not only geographically) to each other, how is it that the Portuguese have always fought throughout the centuries to remain apart from Spain? I can only hope that your opinions are not representative of those of the majority of the portuguese people.
I would rather say that thanks to the then richer countries of the forerunner of the European Union, i.e. the European Economic Community, Spain received a disproportionally strong financial support. Thus, a great deal of money was injected in the then broken spanish economy. That was the decisive step for Spain's recovery from its condition of backward, underdeveloped country.
And the portuguese vocals of this forum (in case they are really portuguese) must be joking or raving in delirium with that absurd idea of the Iberian Union. How can you affirm such ridiculous things that the Portuguese and Spaniards are so similar to each other? If you mean this serious, then you must be very superficial or ignorant. To which Spaniards are you comparing? To the Basques? To the rich Catalonians? Or to the Andalusians? Or may be you mean the Galicians? If Spaniards and Portuguese are so similar and so close (not only geographically) to each other, how is it that the Portuguese have always fought throughout the centuries to remain apart from Spain? I can only hope that your opinions are not representative of those of the majority of the portuguese people.
Nationalism is always politically, and sometimes religiously motivated. For example, look at N. Korea and S. Korea - same people. I could cite other examples. What led to the establishment of a separate Portugal and Spain hundreds of years ago was purely political . That split was all about power struggles and political posturing by the monarchs of that time. But before the split Portugal and Spain was IBERIA. There was always much intermarriage between the royals and elites of west Iberia (Portugal) and central Iberia (Castile) - the history books more than substantiate this.
All I'm saying is that given Portugal's strong relationship with i.e., China (exploding world economic power), as some have correctly pointed out here, would bode well for Spain if their was an Iberian union. Spanish S. Americans and Brazil realized the great benefit of Mercosur. When you consolidate economies of 2 nations, it doesn't matter if one economy is weaker than the other, because both nations win. For example, if one country has 6 apples, and it unites with another country that has 4 apples, then this new single nation will have 10 apples. I don't know how much more basic an example I can give.
At any rate, this is all hypothetical, and I don't think Portugal wants the Iberian union anyway, as they are doing just fine for themselves. Spain wants it more. If Spain is not happy with Basque, Catalonian and Galician nationalism, then why don't they let them separate??? They are headaches for Spain? No sir, I don't believe it for a second. It's all about $$$ folks. Spain is all too aware of that. How sweet it would be for Spain to add Portugal to the mix.
All I'm saying is that given Portugal's strong relationship with i.e., China (exploding world economic power), as some have correctly pointed out here, would bode well for Spain if their was an Iberian union. Spanish S. Americans and Brazil realized the great benefit of Mercosur. When you consolidate economies of 2 nations, it doesn't matter if one economy is weaker than the other, because both nations win. For example, if one country has 6 apples, and it unites with another country that has 4 apples, then this new single nation will have 10 apples. I don't know how much more basic an example I can give.
At any rate, this is all hypothetical, and I don't think Portugal wants the Iberian union anyway, as they are doing just fine for themselves. Spain wants it more. If Spain is not happy with Basque, Catalonian and Galician nationalism, then why don't they let them separate??? They are headaches for Spain? No sir, I don't believe it for a second. It's all about $$$ folks. Spain is all too aware of that. How sweet it would be for Spain to add Portugal to the mix.
<< Nationalism is always politically, and sometimes religiously motivated. For example, look at N. Korea and S. Korea - same people. I could cite other examples. What led to the establishment of a separate Portugal and Spain hundreds of years ago was purely political . That split was all about power struggles and political posturing by the monarchs of that time. But before the split Portugal and Spain was IBERIA. There was always much intermarriage between the royals and elites of west Iberia (Portugal) and central Iberia (Castile) >>
When the very first part of Portugal was freed form Moorish control, the ruler that was chosen was Henry of Burgundy(now part of France. As what happened to other countries, his peculiar pronounciation of Portugal was imitated by his subjects that's why Portuguese phonology now coincides with that of French especially the nasal sounds of 'n' and 'm' at the end of the word which are nowhwere present in other Iberian speeches and even in Italian.
When the very first part of Portugal was freed form Moorish control, the ruler that was chosen was Henry of Burgundy(now part of France. As what happened to other countries, his peculiar pronounciation of Portugal was imitated by his subjects that's why Portuguese phonology now coincides with that of French especially the nasal sounds of 'n' and 'm' at the end of the word which are nowhwere present in other Iberian speeches and even in Italian.
<< Nationalism is always politically, and sometimes religiously motivated. For example, look at N. Korea and S. Korea - same people. I could cite other examples. What led to the establishment of a separate Portugal and Spain hundreds of years ago was purely political . That split was all about power struggles and political posturing by the monarchs of that time. But before the split Portugal and Spain was IBERIA. There was always much intermarriage between the royals and elites of west Iberia (Portugal) and central Iberia (Castile) >>
When the very first part of Portugal was freed form Moorish control, the ruler that was chosen was Henry of Burgundy(now part of France). As what happened to other countries, his peculiar pronounciation of Portuguesel was imitated by his subjects that's why Portuguese phonology now coincides with that of French especially the nasal sounds of 'n' and 'm' at the end of the word which are nowhwere present in other Iberian speeches and even in Italian.
When the very first part of Portugal was freed form Moorish control, the ruler that was chosen was Henry of Burgundy(now part of France). As what happened to other countries, his peculiar pronounciation of Portuguesel was imitated by his subjects that's why Portuguese phonology now coincides with that of French especially the nasal sounds of 'n' and 'm' at the end of the word which are nowhwere present in other Iberian speeches and even in Italian.
Portugal's Main foreign languages are:
English 32%
French 24%
Spanish 9%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Portugal
English 32%
French 24%
Spanish 9%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Portugal
'Guest' : « But while Italy is lethally indebted and has been struggling for years with a zero growth, Spain is one of the fastest growing economies in Western Europe and enjoys a sound financial situation. Which makes the Italians understandably jealous. »
Je ne pense pas que les Italiens soient jaloux vis-à-vis d'une nation en particulier. En revanche, déclarer que l'Espagne « jouit d'une situation financière saine », parce que la croissance a été soutenue pendant un temps (à relativiser par une forte inflation), revient à affirmer qu'un athlète qui s'élance à toute vitesse vers un gouffre de 100 m de largeur pourra le franchir en un bond... La croissance espagnole est très fortement liée à l'expansion immobilière qui risque de faire assez rapidement pschitt, puis patatras.
'Guest' : « I would rather say that thanks to the then richer countries of the forerunner of the European Union, i.e. the European Economic Community, Spain received a disproportionally strong financial support. Thus, a great deal of money was injected in the then broken spanish economy. That was the decisive step for Spain's recovery from its condition of backward, underdeveloped country. »
Exactement comme pour le Royaume-Uni dans les années 70, l'ex-RDA dans les années 90 et les pays de l'Est dans les années 2000. Toutes ces régions étaient économiquement sinistrées jusqu'à ce que la CEE ou l'UE les aide à se développer.
Je ne pense pas que les Italiens soient jaloux vis-à-vis d'une nation en particulier. En revanche, déclarer que l'Espagne « jouit d'une situation financière saine », parce que la croissance a été soutenue pendant un temps (à relativiser par une forte inflation), revient à affirmer qu'un athlète qui s'élance à toute vitesse vers un gouffre de 100 m de largeur pourra le franchir en un bond... La croissance espagnole est très fortement liée à l'expansion immobilière qui risque de faire assez rapidement pschitt, puis patatras.
'Guest' : « I would rather say that thanks to the then richer countries of the forerunner of the European Union, i.e. the European Economic Community, Spain received a disproportionally strong financial support. Thus, a great deal of money was injected in the then broken spanish economy. That was the decisive step for Spain's recovery from its condition of backward, underdeveloped country. »
Exactement comme pour le Royaume-Uni dans les années 70, l'ex-RDA dans les années 90 et les pays de l'Est dans les années 2000. Toutes ces régions étaient économiquement sinistrées jusqu'à ce que la CEE ou l'UE les aide à se développer.
You're off topic guest...and for some reason you are sidestepping the rebuttals, by mentioning things that are neither here nor there. If you stayed on the thread of discussion (Iberian union) it would be easier to have a dialogue.
As 'Desde otro sition con el mi' said, and I quote:
"Have you ever been to Portugal? Yo sí y te puedo decir que es un pais estupendo, te puedes entender con ellos perfectamente a poco que lo aprendas, sus costumbres,paisajes y gente son excepcionales.
En España hay regiones más ricas que otras y por eso no vamos a dejarlas de lado. ¿o sí?
Y mira ya hay cosas en marcha: Portugal y España crean un laboratorio ibérico de nanotecnología
http://www.laflecha.net/canales/ciencia/portugal-y-espana-crean-un-laboratorio-iberico-de-nanotecnologia/
Yo creo que hace más falta posturas de conocimiento mutuo. O sea, más publicidad.
MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING.
Ps: Viaja a ver si se te quita la tontería."
And this is a Spaniard saying this!
"Have you ever been to Portugal? Yo sí y te puedo decir que es un pais estupendo, te puedes entender con ellos perfectamente a poco que lo aprendas, sus costumbres,paisajes y gente son excepcionales.
En España hay regiones más ricas que otras y por eso no vamos a dejarlas de lado. ¿o sí?
Y mira ya hay cosas en marcha: Portugal y España crean un laboratorio ibérico de nanotecnología
http://www.laflecha.net/canales/ciencia/portugal-y-espana-crean-un-laboratorio-iberico-de-nanotecnologia/
Yo creo que hace más falta posturas de conocimiento mutuo. O sea, más publicidad.
MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING.
Ps: Viaja a ver si se te quita la tontería."
And this is a Spaniard saying this!
Greg:"Exactement comme pour le Royaume-Uni dans les années 70, l'ex-RDA dans les années 90 et les pays de l'Est dans les années 2000. Toutes ces régions étaient économiquement sinistrées jusqu'à ce que la CEE ou l'UE les aide à se développer."
That may be true, but :
1. The financing of the former German Democratic Republic came (and still comes) mainly from their west german brothers.
2. The United Kingdom of the 1970's was not as backward and underdeveloped as Spain was before joining the EU.
3. When will that "strong" spanish economy help finance other poorer EU members, e.g. the new members of East Europe? Thus far, Spain has only held the hand open to receive disproportionately large financial support from the EU, thus disfavouring the development of the other smaller and poorer EU members.
That may be true, but :
1. The financing of the former German Democratic Republic came (and still comes) mainly from their west german brothers.
2. The United Kingdom of the 1970's was not as backward and underdeveloped as Spain was before joining the EU.
3. When will that "strong" spanish economy help finance other poorer EU members, e.g. the new members of East Europe? Thus far, Spain has only held the hand open to receive disproportionately large financial support from the EU, thus disfavouring the development of the other smaller and poorer EU members.
"I would rather say that thanks to the then richer countries of the forerunner of the European Union, i.e. the European Economic Community, Spain received a disproportionally strong financial support. Thus, a great deal of money was injected in the then broken spanish economy. That was the decisive step for Spain's recovery from its condition of backward, underdeveloped country"
Proportionally Portugal received as many funds as Spain, if not more , and that didn't cause Portugal to prosper as much as Spain. Appart from receiving funds you need to manage them properly and make them useful in order to do the necessary structural changes in the weakest points of a given country's economic system. It appears that Spain only invested those funds in infraestructures like highways , high speed railways but didn't invest as required in I+D which provoked the Spanish economy to depend excessively on tourism and the construction sector. But at least they did something. Portugal didn't invest the european funds in infraestructures nor in I+D and now even the Checz Republic is richer than Portugal.
Proportionally Portugal received as many funds as Spain, if not more , and that didn't cause Portugal to prosper as much as Spain. Appart from receiving funds you need to manage them properly and make them useful in order to do the necessary structural changes in the weakest points of a given country's economic system. It appears that Spain only invested those funds in infraestructures like highways , high speed railways but didn't invest as required in I+D which provoked the Spanish economy to depend excessively on tourism and the construction sector. But at least they did something. Portugal didn't invest the european funds in infraestructures nor in I+D and now even the Checz Republic is richer than Portugal.
When will that "strong" spanish economy help finance other poorer EU members, e.g. the new members of East Europe? Thus far, Spain has only held the hand open to receive disproportionately large financial support from the EU, thus disfavouring the development of the other smaller and poorer EU members.
Spain does not contribute to the European funds because until recently this country was below the average, but with the entrance of Romania in the EU this has changed and Spain is now richer than the average. There is a transitional period and Spain can't start financing the poorer EU members immediately. By the way right now there is one million of Romanians in Spain who work in Spain and send a lot of money to their country, so Spain is right now helping Romania to prosper.
Spain does not contribute to the European funds because until recently this country was below the average, but with the entrance of Romania in the EU this has changed and Spain is now richer than the average. There is a transitional period and Spain can't start financing the poorer EU members immediately. By the way right now there is one million of Romanians in Spain who work in Spain and send a lot of money to their country, so Spain is right now helping Romania to prosper.
"By the way right now there is one million of Romanians in Spain who work in Spain and send a lot of money to their country, so Spain is right now helping Romania to prosper."
Has anyone ever reckoned the vast number of poor Spaniards who emigrated to other countries (specially the Latinamerican countries) and also sent a lot of money to Spain? All those countries also helped Spain to prosper.
Has anyone ever reckoned the vast number of poor Spaniards who emigrated to other countries (specially the Latinamerican countries) and also sent a lot of money to Spain? All those countries also helped Spain to prosper.
Has anyone ever reckoned the vast number of poor Spaniards who emigrated to other countries (specially the Latinamerican countries)
Latinamerica was conquered by the Spaniards, they have the right to migrate there, I think. About Europe, no country began to receive migrants as fast as Spain. France for example, when Spain joined the European Union, established a 6-year moratory by which Spanish workers couldn't access freely to the French labour market, in other words, during those 6 years Spain was not part of the EU for France in that aspect. Spain imposed only a 2-year moratory to the Romanian workers, and appart from that Spain receives much more migrants than the rest of European countries, and more than the Spaniards who migrated to other European countries, which were not as many and always needed papers to be legal. In Spain , whether it's right or not, the current Government legalized around one million of migrants which had no papers at all. No country has been as generous with migrans as Spain in Europe, so to say that Spain does not help the economy of other countries is a falacy. Not only direct funds is an instrument of aid. Spain receives Portuguese migrants as well.
Latinamerica was conquered by the Spaniards, they have the right to migrate there, I think. About Europe, no country began to receive migrants as fast as Spain. France for example, when Spain joined the European Union, established a 6-year moratory by which Spanish workers couldn't access freely to the French labour market, in other words, during those 6 years Spain was not part of the EU for France in that aspect. Spain imposed only a 2-year moratory to the Romanian workers, and appart from that Spain receives much more migrants than the rest of European countries, and more than the Spaniards who migrated to other European countries, which were not as many and always needed papers to be legal. In Spain , whether it's right or not, the current Government legalized around one million of migrants which had no papers at all. No country has been as generous with migrans as Spain in Europe, so to say that Spain does not help the economy of other countries is a falacy. Not only direct funds is an instrument of aid. Spain receives Portuguese migrants as well.