Dark L

Regular poster   Monday, November 01, 2004, 11:55 GMT
Does the Dark L affect the quality of the scwha when it precedes this consonant?

i.e.

TA[BLE]
NO[BLE]
etc...

I think it does because it sounds a lot like the (^) vowel in IN[SULT] and [MUL]TIPLY which are affected by the Dark L.
Smith   Monday, November 01, 2004, 21:26 GMT
The ''u'' sound in ''bud'' and the ''u'' sound in ''bulb'' are definitely not the same sound. The dark ''l'' does change the vowel in ''bulb''.
Regular poster   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 00:27 GMT
What about the scwha? Does the Dark L affect it also?
Jim   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 01:29 GMT
"Bud" vs. "bulb": two completely different vowels for me.

bud = /b^d/
bulb = /bOulb/
Regular poster   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 01:59 GMT
Jim, what about CUT and CULT?

And does the DARK L affect the quality of the schwa when it precedes it? Like it does with the (^) vowel.
Smith   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 03:21 GMT
Yes, The dark ''l'' does change the quality of the schwa vowel sound when it precedes it. The ''a'' sound in ''soda'' and the ''e'' sound in ''shovel'' are two distinct schwa sounds.
Smith   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 03:26 GMT
Jim, what about these words,

multiple
multimedia
multiverse
culture
dull
result
insult
gulf
hull
pulp
gulp
mulch
multipurpose

Jim, ''bub'', ''cold'' and ''bulb'' all have three distinct sounds for me.

[^] when it occurs before the dark ''l'' does not sound at all like the [^] in ''cut'' but doesn't sound quite the same as the ''o'' in ''cold''. I think it's something in between [^] and [Ou].
Smith   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 03:35 GMT
''Jim, what about these words,''

i.e., how do you pronounce those words?
Jim   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 04:46 GMT
"Cut" vs. "cult": exactly the same thing goes on here.

cut = /k^t/
cult = /kOult/

It's the same /Oul/ that you find in "cold" for me. Also it's the same in "salt", "insult", "multiply" and each of the words in Smith's long list except "dull" and "hull" (which I pronounce /d^l/ and /h^l/). Perhaps this is just my accent but I don't pronounce them with /^l/.

As for "table" and "noble" these are normally pronounced /teib.l/ and /nOub.l/ i.e. with a syllabic consonant not /teib..l/ and /nOub..l/ so it's not a question of the /../'s being affected by the /l/.

However, this effect is quite common. Phonemes are realised differently depending on the surrounding sounds. The effect is called coarticulation and it is quite noticible when a vowel is followed by /l/.
Smith   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 05:29 GMT
Jim, It only happens when vowels are followed by the dark /l/. When vowels are followed by the light ''l'' they sound quite normal.
Fred   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 05:31 GMT
''As for "table" and "noble" these are normally pronounced /teib.l/ and /nOub.l/ i.e. with a syllabic consonant not /teib..l/ and /nOub..l/ so it's not a question of the /../'s being affected by the /l/.''

Sp, then is ''label'' a better example of a word with [..l]. i.e. [..] followed by the dark ''l''.
Jim   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 06:00 GMT
Yeah, Fred, it would be if you pronounce it /leib..l/. I pronounce it /leib.l/. Both are acceptable according to http://www.dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=44254&ph=on

"When vowels are followed by the light 'l' they sound quite normal." I don't doubt it but couldn't that be because of the syllable break?
Regular Poster   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 08:27 GMT
Smith wrote:
<<Yes, The dark ''l'' does change the quality of the schwa vowel sound when it precedes it. The ''a'' sound in ''soda'' and the ''e'' sound in ''shovel'' are two distinct schwa sounds.

I believe this. I suspected this all along. :-) I thought I was going insane because I asked a similar question before and the unanimous reply was that no, the schwa sounded identical in all cases. And to my ears this wasn't the case like you've pointed out Smith. Thank you.
Smith   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 22:00 GMT
''Perhaps this is just my accent but I don't pronounce them with /^l/.''

Jim, In most accents words with the diagraph ''ul'' are pronounced /^l/. You seem to be one of a minority that doesn't pronounce ''ul'' as /^l/.

For me ''cult'', ''cold'' and ''salt'' have three different vowel sounds.

cult-[k^lt]
cold-[kOuld]
salt-[sa:lt]

Jim, do you pronounce ''bald'' and ''bold'' the same way?

What about these words, How do you pronounce them?

ultra
pulsar
pulse
vault
alter
altar
scald
scold
hall
hole
halt
scalp
pal
Ralph
dolphin
talc
wolf
wolves
pull
full
bully
hulk
Cal
golf
doll
tall
toll
roll
haul

Jim, So, is it just something about the Australian accent that makes /^l/ when it occurs before a consonant to become [Oul].
Fred   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 22:34 GMT
Jim, So are you saying that /^l/, /Oul/ and /o:l/ merge in Australia?

Do you pronounce ''hall'', ''hole'' and ''hull'' all the same way? All like [hOul]?

Do you also pronounce these pairs of words the same way?

ball-bowl
Paul-pole
tall-toll
mall-mole
call-coal
bald-bold
called-cold
hauled-hold
all-ole