The Future of English

Joe   Monday, December 13, 2004, 07:07 GMT
To answer your pondering question, Vincent:

I can only surmize that German is becoming a popular language in Asia due to the strong investment by German firms and corporations in Asian countries, especially China. And this, in turn, creates an economic desire to learn the language, similar to how there was a jump in the 1980s in Americans learning the Japanese language due to increased Japanese economic investment in the United States. My mother still recounts to me of the numerous American businessmen she used to see sitting on the train from Long Island into New York City with their "Teach Yourself Japanese" books and cassettes.
Dwayne   Monday, December 13, 2004, 20:13 GMT
Joe,

Thanks for your post, I almost agree with everything you said in it, but two points sparked my further interest.

You said: "in the US so many have this phobia that if the children learn a foreign language it will somehow weaken the importance of English within the American borders." Do you think there are really many people in the US who perceive learning a foreign language in this way?

Most often concern about weakining English I've heard referred to the fact that now less emigrants than before are trying to become fluent in English, and it often happens that even their children do not speak good English. I see no justification for everyone who emigrated to any country, whether it's large or small, not to learn its language.

On the other hand, if a child is living in an English country, speak English in home, has (mostly) English speaking peers, and goes to school where English is used all the time, then the suggestion that the development of the child's first language can be hindered by studying any foreign language other is just laughable.

I completely agree that monolinguism is a huge disadvantage. It even does not matter whether you are going to use a second language or not; learning a second language also gives better perspective of your mother tongue. Also it makes easier in the future to learn any other language if it becomes necessary.

Unfortunately, in large monolingual countries, and the US is definitely one of them, the interest to learning a foreign language is often insignificant. In the case, of non-English countries, we have some utilitarian motivation -- you will need English for your carier, but this motivation is different from the real desire to communicate. The result is that people can say a few phrases to express their basic needs, but any meaningful conversation is practically impossible.

The other question I wanted to ask is connected to your following sentence: "With Americans especially stereotyped for our lack of cultural knowledge and sensitivity, it certainly doesn't hurt to strengthen our knowledge of the world."

How much truth do you think there is in this stereotype of Americans? Probably, citizens of the EU are more aware about multicultural world because it is a part of their everyday life; but could you compare Americans with people from other countries that you know.

Finally, I want to thank you for your compliment on my English. I hope that my example will encourage people who has never considered themselves as linguistically talented to learn a second language, and shows them that the desire to communicate is one of the most important factors here.

As to my native language, it is the language of Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Lernontov, Chekhov, Turgenev, Pasternak, Bulgakov just to name a few. I hope you will have no problem to guess it (well, consider it as a test on your cultural awareness -:))
Joe   Monday, December 13, 2004, 20:46 GMT
Dwayne,

I do indeed see it that way. I definitely think any immigrant to this country should learn English. All my ancestors did it, because there was no market to cater to the Italians, or the Dutch, or the Germans, French, etc.

However, that aside, some Americans don't see the need for learning a foreign language. They think that the learning of another language therefore accomodates others and makes them less likely to learn English. Nevermind that in Germany most students learn French and English in schools. Does it weaken German? Not at all. Would teaching native Anglophones weaken English? No. There is a huge market not of monolingual Spanish speakers, but rather of bilinguals who speak both Spanish and English who increase demand for Spanish language content.

I think that the United States has enjoyed an unfair reputation for being culturally ignorant and uninterested in the world outside its borders. However there is a large segment of the population that does indeed believe this. This is not exclusive to the US by any means. But because we were labeled, we have to make steps to break out of it. Sometimes you unfairly are branded as something, and then it's all up to you to get away from that label.

Believe me, I've had horrible experiences with British tourists, extremely rude and drunk English tourists, but I know that not all Britons are like that by any means.

But honestly, the fact is there is a very, very large chunk of the American population that lends itself to supporting the stereotype of the ugly American. They have no regard for other cultures, they think we're the end-all best country on earth, they don't think we need to cooperate with other nations; this all came out en masse during the buildup to Iraq. It's very much also a cause for divide among this god-awful Red State vs. Blue State garbage going on right now.

I certainly hope if I ever undertake Russian that I'm as good at it as you are with English! Do you live in Russia or a former Soviet state?
Dwayne   Tuesday, December 14, 2004, 20:54 GMT
Joe,

Your concern with a high percent of monolinguism among people is very close to me. While most people in the former soviet republics are bilingual (many of them are almost equally fluent in their native language, Russian, and sometimes some other languages), here, in the center of Russia, where I live, most people are monolingual (except emigrants, of course) and have little interest in learning any foreign languages. Some of them would say that they would like to know English better, but not many are ready to put real efforts in this direction unless it is absolutely necessary for their job.

Probably, the situation with English has improved a bit since the soviet time, but not significantly. In soviet schools, teaching a foreign language usually began at age 10, and students have two hours a week. Obviously, not enough to learn a language. In a few school that were considered as specilized on teaching of a foreign language (only one language), learning this language started at age 8 and have more hours a week, however, the results were often not much better -- it more depended on personality of the teacher.

Now, at first glance, the situation may appear much better. In good Moscow schools, learning English started at age 7, they also learn another foreign language (German or French) in middle school, also often have a year or two of Latin. Despite of that, the results are not much better than they were in the old days. Sure, there are much more children than before who can speak English now, but it is mostly because their parents take additional steps in this direction, such as sending their children to English courses or, if they have enough money, sending them to study abroad.

If in many Moscow schools that considered as "good", the situation with teaching of foreign langauges is often unsatisfactory, in the average school, the situation is a completely disaster. After finishing school, some students (not the worst students in class) have difficulties to recollect English pronouns (such as 'he' or 'she'), let alone speak. Now if you asked me what the hell they learned there, I would have to retell you an old joke about the difference between a good student and a bad student: "The difference between a bad student and a good student is that a bad student forgets all the material five minutes before the exam, while a good student five minutes after it."

Could you tell me about learning a foreign language in American schools. I'm really interested how different it is from Russia.

BTW, there are many studies that suggest that learning languages helps brain to develop; here is a link to one article of them: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3739690.stm
Cro Magnon   Tuesday, December 14, 2004, 21:36 GMT
My own experience with foreign languages in American schools was especially bad, but I think even the average is bad. I wasn't even exposed to other languages until high school. At the first school I went to, the curriculum was supposed to be 6 weeks of German, 6 weeks of Spanish, and 6 weeks of French. However, I transferred to a different school 8 weeks into it, and the new school taught Spanish straight through. Which meant I was 6 weeks behind everyone else. That experience turned me off languages!
Gerard   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 00:54 GMT
I think that the American system has a lot to learn from the Canadian system where children start learning French at age 4, as soon as they start school. Another option available in Canada is 'French Immersion' in which English speaking children are literally immersed in a french language school system. At the end of such a program most students are fluent in both languages.
Easterner   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 08:33 GMT
Dwayne said: >>Your concern with a high percent of monolinguism among people is very close to me. While most people in the former soviet republics are bilingual (many of them are almost equally fluent in their native language, Russian, and sometimes some other languages), here, in the center of Russia, where I live, most people are monolingual (except emigrants, of course) and have little interest in learning any foreign languages. Some of them would say that they would like to know English better, but not many are ready to put real efforts in this direction unless it is absolutely necessary for their job.<<

This reminds me of the situation in Hungary, with some differences. I am an ethnic Hungarian originally from Serbia, but now living in Hungary, therefore also a bilingual, and I find it very strange that many people in Hungary can hardly use another language apart from their own (except for the west and Budapest, where are more foreigners and people of mixed origin). The situation is different for ethnic Hungarians from Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania and Serbia, living at the former territory of Austria-Hungary (about 2,5 million altogether), who speak at least the official language of their own country, and in most cases also another foreign language (their situation is much the same as that of Russians living in other ex-Soviet countries). They are much more receptive to the idea of learning languages.

The difference here compared with Russia is that many people are aware what they are missing by not speaking a foreign language, but (at least here in eastern Hungary) somehow lack the openness to accept the different way of thinking conveyed by another language, so they do not become really fluent, because they cannot switch to thinking in the new language. Another reason is that language classes usually concentrate on grammar and passive understanding, rather than active communication in the target language (mostly English and German in Hungary). I personally feel this is very strange, because I grew up speaking Hungarian and Serbian, and started learning English at the age of eight.

I think children should start to learn English early at elementary school (around the age of 8-10) and another foreign language around the age of 12, concentrating on communication besides learning basic grammar, and self-study should also be encouraged. In this way, they could acquire fluency in at least one language by the time they go to university or college, where it is a graduation requirement in Hungary to have a state certificate for at least two languages.
gowest   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 19:59 GMT
coming back to the original topic, the future of english, i am really not sure how long this language is still going to dominate the world.

last time when i checked the website where people can vote for their favorite language http://www.freewebs.com/international-languages/ there was amazingly very little support for english!!

it rather seems that english has lost its credibility within the global community...
Dwayne   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 21:09 GMT
Cro Magnon,

I wonder how typical for Americans not to be exposed to any foreign languages unless high school.

And one more question: When foreign movies are shown on the American screen (I mean, TV or movie theaters), are they usually dubbed or the original sound trach with subtitles in English? If they are dubbed, in which way - whether there is one voice reading all text, or it's like a play of many acters.

BTW, your explantion why you did not learn any foreign language in high school is a total cop out. No offense meant -- it's not your fault. It is difficult to be motivated in learning a foreign language when you live in the US, especially when the course was so short, you would not learn much anyway. To expect any real progress in a few weeks is laughable. Unless you devote yourself to that seriously and send much more time, nothing will be left in your memory pretty soon.


Gerard,
Can you tell use more about what means that "English speaking children are literally immersed in a french language school system". Does it mean that they study other subjects such as math in French? If yes, would not they have some problem with terminology if they have to pass an exam in English one day.


Easterner wrote:
>>> Another reason is that language classes usually concentrate on grammar and passive understanding, rather than active communication in the target language <<<

That is very common practice in our schools too; or, to be more precise, they focus more on grammar and translation. Some teachers believe that the ONLY way to control the students' understanding of text is to make them translate it. <Sigh>...

Of course, not all teachers are like that, but there are many school teachers with low qualification, I guess, it's mainly because of low salary -- you can earn much more working as a private tutor, plus more motivated students, and no red tape.

In the same time, most English courses use the communicative approach, and some of them have native speakers as English teachers.


gowest,

I would not put much trust in polls like this one.
People use English as a communication tool not because it was voted to be such, but it just has happened that most useful information is available in English, and many educated and bussness people know it.
BTW, even to vote on this web site, you have to know English, no other language will work for you.
Dwayne   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 21:13 GMT
I wrote "even to vote on this web site, you have to know English, no other language will work for you.".
Oops, I did not notice that it has also German.
mjd   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 22:17 GMT
Dwayne asked: "When foreign movies are shown on the American screen (I mean, TV or movie theaters), are they usually dubbed or the original sound trach with subtitles in English?"

No, they're shown with subtitles. Unless it's something like Godzilla or Iron Chef, where dubbing is part of the "genre" if you will, I've never seen a foreign movie or tv show that has been dubbed. Dubbing is pretty ridiculous with regard to film.

Occasionally on the news if someone speaks a language other than English, there will be a voice over translation.
Joe   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 23:05 GMT
I would say we have a much higher percentage of dubbing over film than in other countries, such as the Netherlands, where all foreign material is subtitled. When we dub films over, it is usually a professional job, so you have a bunch of different voice actors doing voices for each individual character. By no means does one person do all the voices.

But this is more common for foreign television shows than for film. Almost all foreign film is subtitled. I hate dubbing, it takes a lot away from the film, I think.

How typical is it for Americans to not be exposed to foreign languages until high school? Very. And that is part of the problem. Couple this with the fact most classes are ineffective because you have some students who would rather have a root canal and make the teacher's life a living hell, so nothing gets accomplished. In my Spanish classes there was always one or two who caused problems. It's not effective, you have the teacher spending more time reprimanding delinquent behavior than teaching. The whole atmosphere was far from serious.

Language in early education is EXTREMELY rare in the United States. Unless your child goes to a private school or a very high shooting public school system, language is usually reserved until high school. IN the state of Florida, it is only mandatory for those students planning to pursue a college education. It isn't mandatory for receipt of your high school diploma. The requirement is 2 years of the same language.


One of my own friends is a English-speaking Québécois. From when he first entered school he started learning French. Because French really isn't his favorite subject he doesn't have the highest fluency, but he's highly proficient in the language. He didn't go to an all immersion school, however.
Tiffany   Wednesday, December 15, 2004, 23:49 GMT
I can only speak for myself. I am an American, born and raised in Miami, Florida and I went to private school all my life (don't get my parents started on how horrible they think public schools are). I began to learn Spanish at six/seven years of age and that continued into high school. Every school I went to (three) required a foreign language for graduation. My first school was a nursery to 6th grade school (I only stayed till 1st grade), but they offered Hebrew and Spanish (it was a Jewish school). My second school offered only Spanish. My high school had two options while I attended: French or Spanish. Since I'd already begun Spanish, I of course continued.

And I've never seen a dubbed foreign film except on Telemundo (where they dub english language films into Spanish because Telemundo is a spanish channel on TV). I agree with all those above: dubbing RUINS a film. Subtitles for me please.
mjd   Thursday, December 16, 2004, 04:36 GMT
"I would say we have a much higher percentage of dubbing over film than in other countries, such as the Netherlands, where all foreign material is subtitled."

What films? Other than some campy Japanese films/programs (Godzilla, Iron Chef...in this case it's part of the entertainment of the film/program) and voice overs that you'll have on some documentaries, I can't think of any foreign films I've seen that have been dubbed.

The last foreign film I saw in the theater was "Hero"....subtitled.
Easterner   Thursday, December 16, 2004, 07:46 GMT
Talking about dubbing, it has been an interesting situation for me. I spent most of my life in two countries, Yugoslavia/Serbia-Montenegro (as you prefer) and Hungary. In countries of ex-Yugoslavia, films are exclusively subtitled, while in Hungary almost everything is dubbed, though now there is a higher percentage of subtitled films than there used to be (it is the same situation as in Germany, Italy and Spain). My experience is that dubbing really does take away something from the original atmosphere of a film, even if it is done in a professional and, most of the time, inventive way. I wouldn't say it is "ridiculous", but at any rate a character comes out quite differently depending on whether you hear the original speech or the dubbed version. By he way, the scene here is dominated mostly by American movies, so there is plenty of input for English, but I would be glad to see more European movies as well. Subtitled, of course...