Anyone from China on this forum? What is the situation with the so-called Chinese "dialects". Are they really dialects or are they in fact separate languages. I have always been interested in the Chinese language, but I came to understand that it is not one language, but many dialects, which are mutually unintelligible. I know that Chinese speakers in Hong Kong would not understand Mandarin Chinese spoken in Peking. I also know that despite the difference in pronunciation, the characters are the same all over China. However, I think Taiwan and Honkong uses traditional caracters which make it unintelligible to the PRC residents. So then again we have mutually unintelligible langugaes. Confusing, isn't it? Can anyone tell me more about the situation in China?
For example, what language would two chinese persons use to communicate if one is from Peking and speaks Mandarin and uses simplified characters and the other is from Hong Kong, speaks Cantonese and uses traditional characters. So their languages are mutually unintelligible in both spoken and written form. What language would they use to speak to each other?
Concerning your last question, I guess it would still be Mandarin within China (which I understand is sort of a lingua franca for the whole country), though I am not sure it would be the same for people who live outside China as well. I hope some Chinese posters will provide an answer.
My partner is originally from Wuxi, near Shanghai. He speaks a dialect of the Wu (Shanghainese) language. Mandarin, Wu, Hakka, Min Nan, Min Pei, Cantonese, Gan etc are only languages in the broadest of senses. In fact, they themselves are groups of languages (or, if you will, drastically differing dialects) rather than unified linguistic entities. The speech of Wuxi is very different from the speech of Shanghai, although both would be classified as Wu. The Cantonese spoken in Hong Kong is different from the sort of Cantonese spoken in Guang Zhou.
Mandarin and Cantonese are the only two that have been standardised, whereas the rest of them are spoken languages only. Apart from using classical characters in Hong Kong, people there also have special characters they use to write down Cantonese words.
Although the written language is the same (and the two writing systems are to an extent mutually intelligible), the grammar (phonology, morphology, syntax) of the different languages is not the same. For example, a Mandarin speaker might use two syllables to express a concept, whereas a Wu speaker might use only one. These syllables are often etymologically completely unrelated.
Not only is it impossible for a Cantonese speaker to understand Mandarin, but it is also true for a speaker of Wu, which is geographically and formally much closer to Mandarin. Of course, most Han people from Mainland China speak Mandarin nowadays, albeit with a wide range of accents and with varying degrees of fluency. Many of my students from Hong Kong don't speak Mandarin at all.
Just add something besides what Ved already pointed out:
1) Please use 'Beijing' instead of 'Peking' while referring to the capital of China. Pekin is no longer in use for decades and Beijing fits how it's pronounced in Mandarin.
2) Mandarin is an artificial language based on the Beijing dialect. The Beijing dialect is somewhat different and influenced by Manchu language.
3) The Chinese dialects (including Mandarin) are mutually unintelligible but Chinese technically won't have difficulties learning other dialects just like Italian speakers can easily master Spanish.
4) If you wish to learn Mandarin, I'd suggest you to deal with TW Mandarin. Their accent is easier to understand and copy, tho they are not considered as standard Mandarin in mainland (they rip off or simplify loads of original Mandarin pronunciation).
5) Mandarin has 5 tones (normally 4), Cantonese has 9 (practically 6 or something)
Moreover, Beijing accent is regarded as official or upper class. Just like actors speak an English accent to reveal their posh background in movies/TV play, we do that also. Kinda nerdy.
One question for Ke. Why should we not say Peking and Canton. We say China instead of Zhongguo.. Every language has its own way of expressing foreign place names. England, Angleterre, Inglaterra;London, Londres, Londra; France, Francia, Germany, Allemagne, Paris, Pariggi, Milano, Milan, Mailand etc.
The Chinese versions of foreign country and city names are mostly unintelligible to non-Chinese people. Why should China dictate what foreigners choose to call China's cities?
Correct me if I'm wrong. Beijing is used to be called 'bei ping' which was renamed after 1949 when People Republic of China was founded. And the English version of Beijing was changed from 'Peking' to 'Beijing' at the time. Now Seoul's Mandarin name is changed from 'han cheng' (what we called it for hundreds of years) to 'shou er' which fits their Korean pronunciation officially. We respect Korea and do so. Can't people outside China give the same respect also?
beiping (before 1949) = peking
beijing (1949 ~ ?) = beijing
This reminds me of my confusion with Chairman Mao's name back in my university years. All thoughout grade school he was referred to as Mao Tse Tung. Then in college, my comparative government professor kept talking about someone named Mao Zedong, and I remember thinking "Who is this Mao Zedong person he keeps talking about?" :-)
I also didn't realize until fairly recently that Mumbai is the same city as Bombay.
Same with jiang jie shi which is spelt as Chiang Kai-shek more commonly.
Ke
Why do you call America Meiguo, Great Britain Ying guo, etc. Why do you call Paris Bali etc? Why do you not respect these countries and call them America and Great Britain. Most names of countries and cities are determined from the first time of contact. The Russian word for China comes from the Khitai or Proto-Mongol Liao dynasty that ruled Northern China in the 11th century. That is still the name, Kitae or something, that the Russians use if I an not mistaken. The Khitai also has given us the name Cathay. The word China comes from the Chin dynasty. And we still call it China.
Peking comes from whatever dialect was the first one the English missionaries heard on first contact with the Chinese. All of this has nothing to do with the Beiping issue since the term Peking predates the Nationalists and the brief period when Nanjing was the capital. Lighten up Ke, you are not going to dictate to people what to think and say although I know that is the habit in China.
I respect the French who do not succumb to politically correct nonsense and continue to call Peking Pekin in French. It is their right to call the place whatever they please.
"Lighten up Ke, you are not going to dictate to people what to think and say although I know that is the habit in China."
Please clarify what you mean by this. My understanding is you are saying Chinese like me like to lecture others and this sure offends me.
I'm not telling people what to do, and in fact, I just thought the way you called 'Beijing' was kinda outdated at the first stage. I've lived in down under for years, and I never heard anyone (who are obviously not Chinese) say Peking when referring to our capital, not even in the main stream media of any kind. If today's world is getting to call it 'Beijing', then I guess you'd better know it. Otherwise, forget it. It doesn't matter how you say it after all.
In case you don't know, whenever other countries change their names or whatever, we'd keep updating. For example, Thailand, Cambodia, Korea, Malaysia. And now you call this our habit.
When I say names, I mean names of nations and places.