Romance Languages

Nah, you were more an excuse to cook up that line, which in reality was more for the fun of it than anything else. Have a nice day.

Maria, like I said in the other post, since nobody today lived during the time when Vulgar Latin was spoken we can only speculate. To make matters worse, not a lot of text in Vulgar Latin is available today.

Travis,

I know that most history books say that the Emperor Honorius withdrew Roman forces from Britain in 405 A.D. and recalled them to Italy to defend Italy from the barbarians but don't take these statements too literally. Some historians I've read, and I agree with them, claim that not all of the soldiers the Romans had in Britain would have departed. This is especially true if they had wives and families there, or had rejoined the cilivan population after completing military service.

Maria!
Only Romanian, Sardinian and few southern Italian dialects derived from Classical Latin. All other Romance languages derived from Vulgar Latin including Italian.

Due to its geographical isolation, Romanian is the only language not influenced by other Romance languages, so the grammar is very similar to Classical Latin, keeping declensions and the neuter gender from Classical Latin.(not vulgar Latin)

Unlike the other Romance languages, Romanian has three genders :

Masculine, feminine and NEUTER

Ex:
Feminine : carte-book
Masculine : caine-dog
Neuter :mere-apple,

(Sardinian and only few southern Italian dialects preserved the neuter gender as well)

PORTUGUESE
Nos Estados Unidos um homem esteve 28 anos internado em manicómios vários, ou, falando mais bonito, em diversos hospitais psiquiátricos. No primeiro desses manicómios, onde deu entrada em 1951, o homem em questão foi declarado atrasado mental, visto que nem sequer sabia falar, limitando-se a produzir uns estranhos sons que nada tinham a ver com a linguagem humana. Ao longo dos anos e dos hospitais para onde ia sendo transferido, os médicos foram-no declarando "extremamente pouco comunicativo", "extremamente atrasado", "individuo de linguagem incoerente e despropositada".

SPANISH
Un hombre estuvo ingresado durante 28 años en diversos manicomios de Estados Unidos o, mejor dicho, en hospitales psiquiátricos. En el primer manicomio donde ingresó, en 1951, lo declararon disminuido mental, dado que no sabía ni siquiera hablar y se limitaba a producir sonidos extraños que no tenían nada que ver con el lenguaje humano. A lo largo de los años y de los sucesivos hospitales a donde lo trasladaban, los médicos lo juzgaron "muy poco comunicativo", "muy retrasado" como un "individuo con un lenguaje incoherente".

CATALAN
Als Estats Units, un home va estar internat durant 28 anys en diversos asils o, per parlar més elegantment, en diversos hospitals psiquiàtrics. En el primer d'aquests asils, on va ser internat el 1951, l'home en qüestió va ser declarat minusvàlid mental, ja que ni tan sols sabia parlar i es limitava a produir sons estranys que no tenien res a veure amb el llenguatge humà. En el transcurs dels anys i dels hospitals successius on va estar internat, els metges el van jutjar "molt poc comunicatiu", "molt retardat", com un "individu amb un llenguatge incoherent".

OCCITAN
Als Estats Units, un òme foguèt embarrat 28 ans de temps dins divèrses asilis, o, per o dire mens broncament, dins divèrses espitals psiquiatrics. Dins lo primièr d'aqueles asilis, qu'i foguèt admés en 1951, aquel òme foguèt clamat mentalament endecat, ja que sabiá pas solament parlar e s'acontentava de produire de sons estranhs qu'avián pas res a veire amb lo lengatge uman. Dins lo cors dels ans e dels espitals successius ont èra trasferit, lo jutgèron los mètges "plan pauc communicatiu", "fòrça endarreirat", o coma un "individú del lengatge incoherent".

FRENCH
Aux Etats-Unis, un homme a été interné pendant 28 ans dans divers asiles ou, pour parler plus élégamment, dans divers hôpitaux psychiatriques. Dans le premier de ces asiles, où il a été admis en 1951, l'homme en question a été déclaré handicapé mental, étant donné qu'il ne savait même pas parler et se bornait à produire des sons étranges qui n'avaient rien à voir avec le langage humain. Au fil des ans et des hôpitaux successifs où il était transféré, il a été jugé par les médecins "très peu communicatif", "très retardé", comme un "individu ayant un langage incohérent".

ITALIAN
Negli Stati Uniti, un uomo è stato ricoverato per 28 anni in diversi manicomi, o, per parlare in modo più elegante, in diversi ospedali psichiatrici. Nel primo di questi ospedali, in cui è stato ricoverato nel 1951, l'uomo è stato dichiarato handicappato mentale, dato che non sapeva neanche parlare e si limitava a produrre suoni strani che non avevano niente a che vedere con il linguaggio umano. Con il passare degli anni e il succedersi degli ospedali nei quali era stato trasferito, è stato giudicato dai medici "poco comunicativo", "molto ritardato" o come un "individuo dal linguaggio incoerente".

ROMANIAN
In Statele Unite, un om a fost internat timp de 28 ani în diverse aziluri sau, pentru a vorbi mai elegant, în diverse spitale psihiatrice. In primul din aceste aziluri, unde el a fost admis în 1951, omul în chestiune a fost declarat handicapat mental dat fiind ca* el nu s3tia nici ma*car sa vorbeasca* s3i ca* se stra*duia sa* produca* sunete ciudate care n-aveau nimic a face cu limbajul uman. De a lungul acestor ani s3i în spitalele succesive unde el era transferat el a fost apreciat de ca*tre medici "foarte put3in comunicativ", "foarte înapoiat", ca un "individ avînd un limbaj incoerent".

LATIN
(in my humble translation)

In Iunctus Civitas , unus hominis eram infero tempus de 28 annus in diversus asilum,vel dico elegantus in diversus hospitium psihiatrice.In primum ab il asilum qua ille eram admitum in 1951...

Romanian : "Only Romanian, Sardinian and few southern Italian dialects derived from Classical Latin. All other Romance languages derived from Vulgar Latin including Italian".

How would you explain that Romanian derived from Classical Latin, not Vulgar Latin, given that Dacia was full of Roman soldiers (native or non-native Latinophones) whose Latin is known not to be quite Cicero's ?

Greg

I can write a catalan version much more similar to your occitan one if I stretch it a little (Not the finest contemporary style but catalan altogether):

Als Estats Units, un home fou tancat durant 28 anys dins diversos asils, o per dir-ho menys barroerament, dins diversos hospitals psiquiàtrics. Dins lo primer d'aquells asils, on fou admès el 1951, aquell home fou declarat mentalment incapacitat, ja que ni tan sols sabia parlar i s'acontentava amb produir sons estranys que no tenien pas res a veure amb lo llenguatge humà. Dins lo curs dels anys i dels hospitals successius on era transferit, los metges el jutjaren "molt poc comunicatiu", "força endarrerit", o com a un "individu de llenguatge incoherent"

romanian,


i don't share your point of view (but i am not romanian) you can notice many italian influence and some french ones

Jorid,

Ca <tancat> = Fr <enfermé>. On l'avait déjà vu pour <fermer>.

Couldn't undertsand Oc <broncament> and Ca <barroerament> without translation.

In Oc <s'acontentava de produire de sons estranhs > and Ca <s'acontentava amb produir sons estranys> : got everything but the... verb !

Greg,

You are in the enviable position of being able to take Romanian for granted. When I was a boy in the 1950's it was a little known language that you could get a glimpse of only occasionally from postage stamps. As late as 1968-69 I struggled in vain to find my first Romanian grammars and dictionaries. Almost none were available on the market. I live in the United States, but I doubt that in Western Europe people knew much more about the language. Even refugees I've met in the U.S. from Yugoslavia seem to know surprisingly little about their neighbors next door in Albania and Romania. That is like someone in California knowing nothing about the people of Oregon or Arizona.

"Romanian" is right to some extent. While the Romanian language is not without its Vulgar Latin elements it contains more words of a Classical Latin nature to like - a s,opti - "to whisper" from sopteo "to sigh", - înt,eleg - "I understand from Intellego (used by Cicero), - s&#259;lt&#259;ret,- "jumper; jumping spider" - from saltarix "dancer; leaper" and -bur&#259; -"breeze" and -boar&#259; - 'north wind" from the Classical Latin boreas "north wind".

Okay, the computer ain't cooperating, so I will respell a few words as close as I can in English letters: saltaret, = jumper; jumping spider; bura"breeze boara "north wind".

Brennus : you’re right. Romanian is a Romance language not widely known in Western Europe. That said, I’m still wondering why – not questioning if – Romanian is said to derive from Classical Latin as opposed to Low Latin. However, I’ve done some research on Francophone internet and found many statements (wrongly ?) claiming Romanian derived from Low Latin even if Roman presence ceased somewhat earlier that in Western Romance.

Romanian appears to be more conservative than Western Romance. Or, I should write, than some Western Romance languages since Old French maintained a bicasual declension – nominative vs non-nominative – while (according to what I read) Romanian has four cases with two case-endings – one for nominative and accusative, another for genitive and dative. Plus Romanian seems to have kept vocative for human animates.

For Romanian still has a genitive-dative, it needn’t use periphrases with an equivalent of <de> or <ad>. Perhaps it does. Frankly, I don’t know. But if such were not the case, this would make Romanian apparently closer to Classical Latin than the rest of European Romany. Except that CL <ad> (+ accusative or dative) and CL <de> ( + ablative or accusative, in lieu of non-prepositional genitive) pre-existed Low Latin dissemination. The late success – not the spontaneous creation or recycling – of old prepositions could be the cause of case-dropping. In short, the case-vs-preposition approach might not be an 'always-working' criterion to distinguish Classical Latin from Low Latin. What do you think ?

There’s also the traditional plural-forming divide within European Romany : <s> in Northern, Central and Iberic Romance, <i> or <e> in Italy and Romania. What seems to federate both groups is the scarcity of plural morphemes compared to original Latin where pluralisation was marked according to gender, case and declension type. This doesn’t show that Romanian is an offspring of Low Latin but it indicates some parallels involving ‘innovative’ and ‘conservative’ Romance languages.

Nico! Romanian was never influenced by Italian or other Romance languages except some French loan words deliberately transmuted into Romanian in the 19th century
Ex: jandarm, mersi, dus , etc (romanian spelling)

I think Brennus explained that very well with astonishing examples (better than I could exemplify – I take my language for granted!)

Greg! If you study Romanian you’ll be surprised how many words derived from Classical Latin.When I was studding Latin in school I could barely understand texts written in Vulgar Latin. Not the case with Classical Latin where I could identify many Romanian words.

Besides Romanian conserved- declensions and the NEUTER gender from Classical Latin (not present in Vulgar Latin or other Romance languages)

Ex: Classical Latin and Archaic Latin words preserved in Romanian:

Barbat from (Barbatus)– Man (other Romance –inexistent )
Inteleg from (Intellego)– Understand (other Romance –inexistent )
Unde from (Unde)-Where (other Romance –dove,donde,onde,ou )
Frate from (Frater) Brother (other Romance: irmao hermano frere,fratello )
(There are other hundreds of words identical with Classical Latin)

Obviously Romanian was influenced by many other languages but most Latin words are intact as found only in Classical Latin and archaic Latin
That is why other Romance speakers don’t understand Romanian – not just because of the Slavic loan words but due to the fact that Romanian has a Classical Latin nucleus, not a Vulgar Latin core.

“Intellego” is Cicero’s Latin but no Romance speaker understand me when I say in Romanian: Inteleg! (I understand) (Ex: other Romance: entender,intendere,comprendre)

Intelegi ? :-)

Please stop using the term "Classical Latin." Not one of the Romance languages evolved from this essentially literary standard of Latin that was not actually spoken by most people.

All Romance languages stem from some form of Vulgar Latin.