Rolling R in German

Vytenis   Monday, April 25, 2005, 07:27 GMT
My question for all native German speakers: how common is it to use rolling R in Standard German? The typical German R it is very difficult for foreigners to pronounce... I have heard in many German songs that the singers clearly roll their R's though...
Fredrik from Norway   Monday, April 25, 2005, 08:54 GMT
Rural people in Southern Germany and many Austrians use the rolled -r. It is also used in opera, the theatre etc.
Mäuschen   Monday, April 25, 2005, 14:29 GMT
Fredrik from Norway is not right on rural/urban distribution.

Peter Trudgill in his book SOCIOLINGUISTICS gives a map on Uvular R distribution in Europe...

From the map (and the text), we can see and conclude:

In BAVARIA, AUSTRIA and GERMAN-SPEAKING SWITZERLAND uvular R is not common in educated speech, alveolar R (flap/tap) is preferred there.
Travis   Monday, April 25, 2005, 14:51 GMT
I myself when speaking German tend to prefer an alveolar R simply because I find it easier to pronounce overall, and I'm already used to it, due to having taken Japanese for a while before starting to learn German (Japanese, for the record, uses an alveolar R which is relatively close to /l/, and is often heard by non-Japanese-speakers as such).
Fredrik from Norway   Monday, April 25, 2005, 16:45 GMT
I am not totally sure, but I think many educated Bavarians, even Austrians, speak Hochdeutsch with an uvular -r, in the news and etc.
Walker, Texas Ranger   Monday, April 25, 2005, 17:49 GMT
Yes, educated Austrians, Bavarians and people from other parts of Germany as well do speak Hochdeutsch with an uvular 'r'. I'm not saying all of them, but many of them.
Huchu   Monday, April 25, 2005, 19:14 GMT
The use of alveolar R (rolled R) in German has nothing to do with the level of education of those who use it. Most people in the "Bundesland" Bavaria (Bayern), in Austria and Switzerland use the alveolar R. The ex-president of Germany, Roman Herzog, who came from Bavaria, rolled the R in all his speeches to the nation. But the rolled R of the germans is very soft (similar to the italian R, e.g. in Roma) and not like the strongly rolled R of Castilian, e.g. in "rojo".
Nevertheless, the uvular R is more frequently used in Hochdeutsch. In north, east and west Germany you will only hear uvular R (although not so guttural as the french uvular R), unless you meet someone from the south. And in most words ending with ER, e.g. "Männer", "über", "Wörter", etc., you will not hear the R in many regions of Germany (regardless of whether they speak standard German or not). Instead you will hear Männə, übə, Wörtə.
Huchu   Monday, April 25, 2005, 19:16 GMT
The use of alveolar R (rolled R) in German has nothing to do with the level of education of those who use it=The use of alveolar R (rolled R) in German has nothing to do with the level of education people.
Lazar   Monday, April 25, 2005, 19:19 GMT
Interesting...I didn't know that there were any German speakers who used the alveolar R. Personally, I think the alveolar R is easier than the uvular R.
greg   Monday, April 25, 2005, 19:26 GMT
Help ! I'm lost : too many /r/...

Can someone give examples of alveolar, voiced and voiceless uvulars, rolled, trilled etc in various languages ?
Huchu   Monday, April 25, 2005, 19:33 GMT
Sorry that the sign I used is not accepted. Let's hope it works now:

Männə, übə, wörtə
Huchu   Monday, April 25, 2005, 19:53 GMT
>..."Männer", "über", "Wörter"...> Well, I meant you would hear a closed, short a.

To Lazar:
It depends on whether you use uvular or alveolar R in your mother language.
Griffin   Monday, April 25, 2005, 20:06 GMT
Lazar, these are the basics anyway:
Alveoar: The way for example Spanish or Scottish people would pronounce 'r'.
Uvular: Think 'Edith Piaf'.
Mxsmanic   Monday, April 25, 2005, 20:15 GMT
There are quite a few rhotic consonants.

Alveolar 'r' is pronounced by placing the tip of the tongue on or near the alveolar ridge (the hard ridge behind the upper front teeth). If the tongue vibrates against the ridge with the passage of air, the 'r' is trilled and alveolar; if it just touches the ridge briefly, it is a flapped or tapped (both terms are equivalent) alveolar 'r'.

Uvular 'r' is prounounced by raising the back of the tongue until it lightly touches the uvula (the fleshy process at the base of the palatine velum). If it is just lightly held there as air passes, it's a uvular fricative; if the uvula is made to vibrate, it's a uvular trill.

A retroflex 'r' is produced by curving the tongue tip slightly backwards and holding it just beneath the hard palate, behind the alveolar ridge. A postalveolar approximant 'r' is similar, except that the tongue is held closer to the alveolar ridge and is brought a bit closer to the palate.

There are other variations of the rhotic consonant, including a retroflex tap and a retroflex approximant.

The alveolar 'r' is used in Spanish and many languages, both as a flap and a trill (phonemically distinct in Spanish and some other languages). The uvular fricative is used in standard French and German; some dialects substitute a uvular trill. The retroflex is used in Hindi and some other languages. The postalveolar approximant is used in standard English (a small minority of speakers use an articulatory variant that is acoustically identical, called "bunched 'r'").
Huchu   Monday, April 25, 2005, 20:16 GMT
"Nevertheless, the uvular R is more frequently used in Hochdeutsch"
I meant, the uvular R is so widely distributed in Germany that for most germans it is a torture to learn to pronounce the alveolar or rolled R.