I've heard that it's only possible to learn a language to a native level (which I define for lack of a better measure to be being able to be mistaken for a native speaker on the telephone) if you start before about age 10. I've also heard that it's possible afterwards it's just that people don't because they're afraid to make mistakes, don't have peer pressure, have their identity, etc.
So, has anyone here actually learned another language to perfection, pronunciation and all? If you've learned another language, how well have you been able to learn it? Do you feel you still have room for improvement, and are able to improve it?
Right now I'm studying Chinese and Spanish and would like to perfect them (I mean, if 8 year olds can learn it, surely I -- an intelligent college student -- should be able to! Right?). But I suppose I should find out if that's a reasonable goal or not.
It takes about 15 years to really learn a language. If you start now as a young college student in any foreign language you should be pretty good at it by around age 35.
Most people agree that children have an easier time learning another language than adults even though the reasons are not fully understood.
Brennus - more synaptic connections can be formed in kids I guess, plus an emptier mind.
15 years to be "pretty good" as opposed to indistinguishable from a native?! Yikes... Well thanks for the heads up :-p
If you learn for example Russian, then you can considerably speed up the learning process if you move to Russia and live there for at least a year. Having direct contact to Russians and Russian daily life will allow you to reach a very advanced stage after 1-2 years.
I know many Germans who speak native-like English. They have all spent an exchange year in English-speaking countries.
If you are very close to a native level but have problems with your accent, you can go to a 'dialect coach', but that might be expensive...
Of course, going from German to English is going from one West Germanic language that is more morphologically and inflectionally complex to another that is less so, and more analytic, so hence I would not find it too surprising that such would not be the most difficult of tasks, as learning languages go.
Hm, interesting points Ben and Travis, thanks. After a bit of reading on this site I happened upon Tom's profile (one of the head honchos of the site) here:
http://antimoon.com/learners/tomasz_szynalski.htm
There are some samples of him reading there. They may not be *perfect perfect* but they're definitely motivating. At some points in the first one he sounds native to me.
I agree with Gabe that you can learn a foreign language to a native level only if you start very young. I would add that you have to live among native speakers or at least use English on daily basis, because you can't learn it that well at school. I started learning English at school when I was 10, but I can't say I speak it as well as my native language, not even close. I think you can learn all the vocabulary, grammar etc. perfectly, but one thing I will never learn is the accent, I will always have a foreign accent. On the other hand, if I had moved to an English speaking country at the age of 10, I would have been able to speak it like a native speaker.
<<I've heard that it's only possible to learn a language to a native level...if you start before about age 10.>>
This is utter nonsense. I can proudly say that I learned to speak Vuhlkansu and Rihannsu like a native speaker in my late 20s. My proficiency in Vuhlkansu became evident when I called a call center in Gol to complain about my transporter service, and the operator mistook me for a fellow Vuhlkanu. I had achieved success! This, despite such enabling modern wizardry as universal translators, which have only created feeble-minded societies that are too lazy to do things the old-fashioned way. Tum-vellar weht yeht-urgam'es - ri weh-rom do kimihnsular.
Dif-tor heh smusma
(LLAP)
Lt. Cmdr. Pierson: Why bother with those languages? Klingon is what real warriors speak.
I would think it would have to be quite an exceptional person who learned English as a foreign Language and achieved complete fluency and at the same time completely eradicated all traces of his/her original non native accent. All the excellent and highly proficient English Language speakers of non native origin that I've met still had quite distinct foreign accents of varying degrees.
To closest to a native English Language accent (UK in this case) from a non native speaker I have encountered was a lady in a store in Amsterdam. I asked her where in the UK she came from and she told me she had never been to the UK in her life. I was amazed yet when I listened carefully I could detect the occasional trace of her own native accent, presumably Dutch. It was evident if you listened carefully....the odd intonation here and there.
<<Lt. Cmdr. Pierson: Why bother with those languages? Klingon is what real warriors speak.>>
Ah! DaHjaj SuvwI''e' jiH. bItu Hpa' bIHeghjaja. QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS !
My Klingon is not as good.
reH nay'meylIjyIn Dujablu'jaj
(A traditional Klingon toast, translated as "May your dishes always be served alive!")
I was taught german from the age of 11 and french from the age of 9, I am nearly fluent in german but not quite in french im 14 now but although i had an advantage in which my mother was always interested in french ! i have also wrote the same paragraph in german
Ich lerne deutsch seit ich bin 11 jahre alt und franzozisch seit ich bin neun jahre alt, ich spreche ganz gut deutsch aber nicht als gut in franzozisch jetzt bin ich 14 jahre alt obwohl ich ein vorteil hatte mein mutter intressiert sich fur franzozisch ! habe ich auch diese paragraf auf englisch geschreibt
Although aptitude and general intelligence play important roles, a highly motivated person can learn to speak any language with native fluency, in time, and he can do it at any age, not just before age 10 (before puberty, according to some equally incorrect sources).
Learning to speak any language perfectly is hard work; this is true even for your native language (ten-year-olds do _not_ speak their native languages perfectly). But if you really, really want to succeed, you will.
The vast majority of people are content to achieve functional fluency in a language, and are not motivated to "sound like a native"; and this is why you come across few people who have actually achieved that level.
I don't believe 15 years is a limit (lower) for achiving a native level of a language.Not more, not less. It depends of each person, how intelligent he/she is, how much time and study he/she puts in,how often that person speaks the language, if he/she is in that country.
I agree with the fact that the younger one is, the easier is to learn a language.I know people who have been in the US for more than 30 years and their English is really bad. They don't even know the Past Tense of "to go", for exemple.
To my opinion, English language has a very difficult pronounciation, of course because it's not a fonetic language. In other languages such as French, Italian, Spanich , it's easier to get a native pronounciation.
When I speak French in Canada, I'm mistaken with a native speaker.I started learning French when I was about 8 and by the time I was 14, I was speaking French very well. Since than (I am in my 30's now) I spoke just a few times and I still can read and pronounce very well.
A friend of mine, a native of Italy, told me that some Hungarian friends who live in Italy after about 3 years they lost completly their native accent.
One time I went to hiring event by Continental airlines and the English language requirments for non-natives were :fluency to level 4. They said level 5 is for native speaker. I guess they meant one is still considered being fluent even if he/she makes some mistakes. I don't know if they actually were refering to accents.