latinos

do "latinos" speak english ? Why racism against ?

I don't understand what u r driving at? Please explain!

Yang,
don't worry. In the States people call "latinos" to latin americans who leave and work there for the good and for the bad.
It's not really adequate, as long as "latino" comes from the latin language, and latinos are supposed to be italian in first place, spaniards, frenchs, portugues, etc.

Latin americans, except for brasilians and I guess some Guyana, speak Spanish.

So, it seems that some spanish people who come from Spain to the States have un accent very similar to latin american people and they hate to be taken as latin americans. It's just a little problem of social standing I suppose... or social who knows.

You see, to be racist, you have at least to know where you come from and they seem to ignore it... so.. it's just a question of ignorance.
M. Lacan used to say that "ignorance is one of the passions of human beings"

Dora : no, "latinos" are not supposed to be Italians in first place. They're supposed to be from Latium (Lazio) in first place, then (equally) Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Québec, Southern America, Northern Africa, Oceania etc.

Yan huyng,

"Latino" is another misnomer. Most people called "Latinos" in the United States are actually Native American peoples: Aztecs, Tarascans, Tainos, Chibchans, Incas etc. and have arrived in the country only in the last 30 or 40 years. They speak Spanish because Spanish Conquistadors conquered their ancestors in the sixteenth century.

However,even the Spanish themselves appear to be descended from almost everybody but Romans i.e. Iberians, Halstatt Celts, Carthaginians, Arabs, Jews, Alans, Visigoths, Charlemagne's Franks etc.

There is racism in every country and the United States is actually not foremost. It's stronger in Australia, Russia, China and Japan. Even Brazil and Argentina aren't rolling out the mat to Cuban, Puerto Rican and Mexican immigrants. Nevertheless, it goes without saying that America is still the country most people in the world want to immigrate to in spite of the of the racism and high crime rates. Even back in 1978, I remember reading an article which said that about 20,000 Australians immigrated to the U.S. every year compared with about 1200 Americans to Australia. I doubt that the figures have changed much since then.

"There is racism in every country and the United States is actually not foremost. It's stronger in Australia, Russia, China and Japan. Even Brazil and Argentina aren't rolling out the mat to Cuban, Puerto Rican and Mexican immigrants."

That's a very subjective thing; how can you measure racism? And where do you draw the line; at a political level, based on immigration rates?

"Even back in 1978, I remember reading an article which said that about 20,000 Australians immigrated to the U.S. every year compared with about 1200 Americans to Australia. I doubt that the figures have changed much since then."

That's because America's population is 15 times that of Australia. A simple calculation: 15 x 1200 = 18,000 which is close to 20,000. Of course America can accept more migrants.

Joe,

Regarding the comments and questions posed in your post: All I can say is this:

1) Concerning: "That's a very subjective thing; how can you measure racism?

Psychologists and sociologists do have questions they use to measure it but I shouldn't discuss them on this forum. Especially since this is primarily a language forum.


2) "That's because America's population is 15 times that of Australia."

Population size probably factors into it but it's not the main differential. It could be that life is easier in the United States than it is in Australia and full of more luxuries and conveniences. I'm sure it is. I also recently heard an Australian-American female CEO on TV say that she chose to live in America because she thinks there are a lot more opportunities for women in the U.S.

People often don't appreciate how good we have it in the U.S. until they visit another country. In fact, you don't have to go to a third world country to get a hint of this. Whenever have gone to Canada, I have noticed that the roads are not as good there as they are in the U.S., there are fewer restaurants and dining spots, even bathrooms and drinking fountains are more scarce.

Whenever have gone to Canada > Whenever I have gone to Canada.

"Psychologists and sociologists do have questions they use to measure it but I shouldn't discuss them on this forum."

It's a hairy analysis. I find it hard to believe there is much to compare from one cosmopolitan city to the next.

"Population size probably factors into it but it's not the main differential."

Of course it is the main factor. A tiny country, one-15th the size of another can't possibly absorb the same numbers of migrants, assuming both countries have the same wealth.

"I also recently heard an Australian-American female CEO on TV say that she chose to live in America because she thinks there are a lot more opportunities for women in the U.S."

But a CEO isn't exactly middle-America or middle-Australia, which are much the same, as you'd expect from developed nations. The affluent only account for a miniscule part of a population.

have the same wealth > per capita.

<<"There is racism in every country and the United States is actually not foremost. It's stronger in Australia, Russia, China and Japan>>
It's truth about Russia, unfortunately racism is very high here, african students leave the country, they are afraid to go out.....Russian skinheads are the most numerous in Europe. Latinos can be considered to be "chechens" (terrorists), it s also dangerous for you in Russia. :(

I had the extravagant notion that there were much more languages other than Spanish and Portuguese in Latin America. Wouldn't be deliberate ignorance a flagrant form of racism? To put all the blame on XVIth century conquistadores seems to me a cynical practice very much favoured by some latin-americans.

When I was living in Argentina I was surprised at how open racism could be there, which disturbed me at times. While unfortunately racism persists everywhere to varying degrees (and you're deceiving yourself if you believe your area or country is completely free of racism...racism goes beyond overt, obvious actions, and may often lie beneath in the subconscious thoughts and actions which people may not even realize they have), I think in some places racism exists in more overt fashions.

I was very surprised when some of my Argentine acquaitances who were very open and reasonable in other domains would all of a sudden make a racial comment (against whatever group...it doesn't really matter for this discussion). Some things my Argentine professors said would've gotten them fired and sued on the spot in the US. My Argentine host mom also often said racially disparaging comments towards various groups--I realized that to varying degrees overt expressions of racism are more tolerated (if not on an official level) in Argentina than in the US.

When I expressed my concerns over some of these comments, they were usually dismissed as unnecessarily worrisome "North American Political Correctness"--which might have a grain of truth in it, but I was still surprised that people who I considered rational and open-minded could say such things.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not at all implying Argentines as a whole are crazy racists, and in fact I fell in love with the country and the people--and most people I met were very reasonable and fair towards others. However, I did realize that at least in comparison with my cultural norms and expecatations from the US, much more is tolerated on an overt level in Argentina. In the US, as in other places in the world, racism unfortunately still exists (and while it sadly may be manifested in overt fashions even today, I think, these days, when it exists it most often lies in the subconscious or unexpressed thoughts that people may not even be completely be aware of--however that still doesn't excuse it--it's still racism), but it is certainly not widely socially acceptable in the US, especially to the degree it is in some other places.

Also, in the US there is at least somewhat of a willingness to acknowledge and try to work on combatting racism. I think the high number of American films meant to examine racial themes in the American experience and to foster dialog on the subject is a positive thing. However, the relative willingness of Americans to acknowledge and learn about racism in their own country (past or present) and the corresponding sizable genre of films meant to examine such subjects extensively may mislead international viewers who see movie after movie with racism to think the US is a highly racist society--when it's really more the case that Americans are willing to talk and learn about these ills that exist in many places of the world. Again, not to criticize Argentina, but at this point I would be surprised to see a genre of Argentine films emerge with the purpose of examining race relations in the country (even tho problems quite obviously exist), especially because there would be little support for them--it is commonly believed by many Argentines that racism does not exist in their country. In fact I was often told by Argentines that "racism doesn't exist in Argentina...but it does in the US--I've seen the movies!"

I hope I'm not singling out nations or peoples, here, as that's counterproductive and not what I intended *at all*--but I felt I should use examples from my personal experience and provide backup to the theoretical issues I was discussing.

Greg,
yes, of course. I wanted just to give some kind of general idea of the problem...

You see, it's so nuts, that I called up a "marchand" in Spain and he said: No, in Spain we don't want "latino" painters. You should go to the States.
I had to make an effort not to laugh.

It's all a reflect of a time where people seem to be very concerned with aspects like blood, race, origins and all that stuff. I would say it's quite near fascism...

As a matter of fact, to say even latin american or ibero americans it's also not very adequate, as long as South America and Central population is the resulta of an extraordinary "crossbreeding" betwen the cultures of the empires and the rest of indian populations and the spanish, portugues and laters migrations. As always, this is reflecting in the language and in the way we write. M. Alejo Carpentier, the cuban writer, has talked extensively about this, and also M. Arciniegas, in "El continente de los siete colores".

We have another languages in latin America and in some countries, like Peru, Paraguay and Bolivia (I haven't been to Mexico, so I don't know) where quechua, guarani and aymara are spoken by the majority of people, together with Spanish. Languages which have contributed to Spanish.

Kirk:
¿How long did you lived in Argentina and where? It takes years to understand a country... and I am not saying there is not racism, as long as we live a time where it's some kind of epidemy. But there are differences between racism, xenophobia and local expressions.