I've seen Cooper in Chelsea
Can we detect a homosexual from his accent?
And who's calling who prudish? Can we not be both people of the mind and of the flesh? I have certainly read many poets who have thought so, and as they are lovers of language and of the flesh, I do not see that we should necessarily separate the two. Perhaps we should start a message board on bawdy language, and depictions of lust, sex, and hedonism in literature of the English language. Who has read the Tropic of Cancer? Shakespeare can even provide a good starting point--dirty, dirty old sod.
***"It is the European and particularly British attitude in the Victorian and Elizabethan eras that has made the U.S. prudish. The difference is that in America we have to fight about everything for decades before we change it."***
There's little doubt that the Victorians were more than just a tad prudish, ridiculously so by today's standards in this country and in the rest of europe. From history though, I'm not too sure that the Elizabethans were all that prudish.......quite the reverse - the Elizabethan era could well be described as one of bawdiness and wild abandon, by all accounts.
Following the displacement of the "Old Faith" here...ie the Church of Rome....there were elements of Protestantism which later gave rise to the Puritans, but this was mainly in the 17th century, and as it was a band of Puritans which sailed forth to the New World carrying their Puritanism with them, and it became ingrained more or less into the new American Constitution and has remained pretty much evident in much of American life today, whereas it has been pretty much lost over here when compared with the USA, where religion, church attendance, rabid evangelism, weird cults, sects and goodness knows what else are all very much more evident than over here. To Europeans generally (including Brits) all this seems quite extreme, and at the same time makes it difficult for us to relate it all to the rampant consumerism and Mammon like devotion to capitalistic ideals of a country which at the same time pretty much produces more pornographic material than any other country on earth, and by and large refuses to acknoweldge the damage it is causing to the planet's eco systems merely to satisfy its aforementioned ideals.
But I speak from afar...I may be entirely wrong, never having been to America. But it does seem that Americans generally are a lot more prudish than we are in Europe...at least, outwardly so. God knows what they get up to behind closed doors. Many of them do seem genuinely "shocked" by what they encounter over here in Europe though - especially on TV....and I've overheard their comments about all those magazines on open display over here....even close to the supermarket checkouts! Quite funny, really! Aw, bless! :-)
Anyway, the Victorians are now looked back on with disdain for their narrow minded, bigoted hypocrisy riddled with doublt standards, but if you enjoyed the life of wild excesses it seems that the Elizabethans by and large were quite hot stuff in that department!
Religion and
There's little doubt that the Victorians were more than just a tad prudish, ridiculously so by today's standards in this country and in the rest of europe. From history though, I'm not too sure that the Elizabethans were all that prudish.......quite the reverse - the Elizabethan era could well be described as one of bawdiness and wild abandon, by all accounts.
Following the displacement of the "Old Faith" here...ie the Church of Rome....there were elements of Protestantism which later gave rise to the Puritans, but this was mainly in the 17th century, and as it was a band of Puritans which sailed forth to the New World carrying their Puritanism with them, and it became ingrained more or less into the new American Constitution and has remained pretty much evident in much of American life today, whereas it has been pretty much lost over here when compared with the USA, where religion, church attendance, rabid evangelism, weird cults, sects and goodness knows what else are all very much more evident than over here. To Europeans generally (including Brits) all this seems quite extreme, and at the same time makes it difficult for us to relate it all to the rampant consumerism and Mammon like devotion to capitalistic ideals of a country which at the same time pretty much produces more pornographic material than any other country on earth, and by and large refuses to acknoweldge the damage it is causing to the planet's eco systems merely to satisfy its aforementioned ideals.
But I speak from afar...I may be entirely wrong, never having been to America. But it does seem that Americans generally are a lot more prudish than we are in Europe...at least, outwardly so. God knows what they get up to behind closed doors. Many of them do seem genuinely "shocked" by what they encounter over here in Europe though - especially on TV....and I've overheard their comments about all those magazines on open display over here....even close to the supermarket checkouts! Quite funny, really! Aw, bless! :-)
Anyway, the Victorians are now looked back on with disdain for their narrow minded, bigoted hypocrisy riddled with doublt standards, but if you enjoyed the life of wild excesses it seems that the Elizabethans by and large were quite hot stuff in that department!
Religion and
How right you are Damien. I apologies profusely. The Puritan’s of Plymouth didn’t leave England until 1620 while the rule of Elizabeth I ended in 1603—a whole seventeen year difference, for shame. I suppose those Puritans are the result of spontaneous generation (put your seeds and rags in a corner and a mouse will spontaneously come into being). That must have happened in 1619. (After all, you have to give them enough time to develop an ideology, an identity, be persecuted for that identity, and get tired enough of the persecution to flee to what must have seemed like a very terrifying no man’s land. And this, my friend, is why there is such a diversity of religions in the United States. You are right that it has been ingrained in the constitution of the United States: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .” You see, that right was not something that existed in Europe at the time. (It is the reason the Puritans fled to America, and it is also the reason why so many of the Jewish faith have also fled to Athe U.S. There are more Jews in the U.S. than there are even in Israel. You see Damien, we in America don’t stick people in gas chambers or have government sanctioned burnings and beheadings for people who have different beliefs. That is why there is such a large variety of religions here. And yes, there are some strange and radical ones as well as the usual ones. But you are wrong to think that the U.S. constitution is based on puritanical ideas. That is a ridiculous construction made up by evangelicals. The freedom of religion existed as an idea in Europe (Voltaire) as with most of the constitution, the ideas came from the age of enlightenment. America was simply the first to institute these ideas.
While in Britain Oscar Wilde was sentenced to hard labor, Walt Whitman traveled the U.S. freely and published poems about kissing soldiers. While Allen Turing was being Chemically Castrated in London, New York had its own thriving gay nightlife. Do not think that, because the spotlight is no longer on the U.K. and the rest of Europe, that they have no faults. And do not forget that your history of violent bigotry and brutal Imperialism makes that of the United States look like an afternoon at Disney Land. Who but the British and Spanish brought slavery to the new world? Who but the British so kindly handed out blankets riddled with small pox to the Native Americans? And that doesn’t even begin to address what the British did in India, China, Africa, and Argentina? Not Wounded Knee, not the Trail of Tears, not the My Lai Massacre, not even Nagasaki and Hiroshima--with as much warning as was given to the Japanese and as much cause as we had to do it--can compare to Europe’s loving, Imperial embrace. There are things I truly dislike about my government, and I am free to speak of them and do so often. But your antiamericanism is common; it has always been popular to despise those in power. And it is always much easier to do so when you yourself are not in the limelight and there for don't have to answer for your actions.
It is easy for Europe to sit back and shake its finger at the U.S. But Europe doesn't have the same international responcibilities as the U.S. now does it? And when Europe did have those responcibilities, they did a far worse job of it. I would love to see the U.S. retire as a super power. We would be able to be as introverted as the British and French and focus on the problems inside the country. Just like Britan has been able to do over the last few decades. But who would take our place? China. And concidering the reaction that was given to the Olympic torch traveling through London and Paris--I don't think Europe would like that too much. Best wishes across the pond Damien
( I suppose they will probably end this thread for this, but . . . it is worth it)
While in Britain Oscar Wilde was sentenced to hard labor, Walt Whitman traveled the U.S. freely and published poems about kissing soldiers. While Allen Turing was being Chemically Castrated in London, New York had its own thriving gay nightlife. Do not think that, because the spotlight is no longer on the U.K. and the rest of Europe, that they have no faults. And do not forget that your history of violent bigotry and brutal Imperialism makes that of the United States look like an afternoon at Disney Land. Who but the British and Spanish brought slavery to the new world? Who but the British so kindly handed out blankets riddled with small pox to the Native Americans? And that doesn’t even begin to address what the British did in India, China, Africa, and Argentina? Not Wounded Knee, not the Trail of Tears, not the My Lai Massacre, not even Nagasaki and Hiroshima--with as much warning as was given to the Japanese and as much cause as we had to do it--can compare to Europe’s loving, Imperial embrace. There are things I truly dislike about my government, and I am free to speak of them and do so often. But your antiamericanism is common; it has always been popular to despise those in power. And it is always much easier to do so when you yourself are not in the limelight and there for don't have to answer for your actions.
It is easy for Europe to sit back and shake its finger at the U.S. But Europe doesn't have the same international responcibilities as the U.S. now does it? And when Europe did have those responcibilities, they did a far worse job of it. I would love to see the U.S. retire as a super power. We would be able to be as introverted as the British and French and focus on the problems inside the country. Just like Britan has been able to do over the last few decades. But who would take our place? China. And concidering the reaction that was given to the Olympic torch traveling through London and Paris--I don't think Europe would like that too much. Best wishes across the pond Damien
( I suppose they will probably end this thread for this, but . . . it is worth it)
Europe is ready to reclaim the torch! America was just keeping it alight while we got our act together.
oh ya, and Australia, take that damned propogandist of yours that owns Fox news out of our country.
Nice one Winter. Only part I don't agree with is this one:"And when Europe did have those responcibilities, they did a far worse job of it."
I think America is doing as bad job as any other empire did or will do. Responsibilities? Please, do not feel obligated! Go home, take a rest.
I think America is doing as bad job as any other empire did or will do. Responsibilities? Please, do not feel obligated! Go home, take a rest.
Thankfully his thread has wandered off topic just a wee bit! Leave off this bloke Cooper, whoever he is....if he prefers Mark rather than Mary then that's how nature has wired this bloke up and that's absolutely fine in the minds of open minded people who do not allow themselves to be brainwashed by a propaganda screwed up by a combination of mega right wing politicial mania and highly constrictive loopy religious fanaticism verging on the hysterical.
Wow! Wintereis certainly has the measure of us Brits and our historical record, doesn't he? We really haven't been at all nice, have we? After reading all that you had to say I don't think I like us very much at all. In fact, I now quite loathe us and I don't think I'll ever speak to us ever again I'm that wound up about it all. I think I'll emigrate to St Kilda!
Just imagine what may have happened had that jolly bunch of Puritans who set sail from rainswept, windswept Plymouth (England) in 1620 hadn't quite made it to Plymouth Rock (America). Say that had stopped off at the Azores for a tea break and some of those Devon scones with Devon cream and strawberry jam they had packed into their backpacks and decided to stay there beacuse it was a lovely sunny day.........why not settle there instead of on the unknown shores of some strange unknown continent still miles and miles and miles away across the ocean?
The whole linguistic future of the Americas may well have taken a different turning and it's anybody's guess whether modern day Americans may well be speaking either Dutch, French or Spanish rather than the tongue of the beastly English. Just imagine it - all the songs of later years - "New Amsterdam! New Amsterdam! A wonderful town! The Bronx is up and the Battery's down!" That would be years and years after the first settlers had landed on Rotterdam Rock and I wonder what name would have been given to the city later known as Boston? Ijmuiden? Alkmaar? Nijmegen? Just think of the massive market there would have been in throat pastilles had those nasty English Puritans not landed instead!
Is English your native Language anyway? If so, please do something about your spelling skills, especially your apparent confusion between C and S! :-) Oh - and my name, while your at it! But I'm used to being confused with a lad from a horror film, so dinnae fret too much!
Wow! Wintereis certainly has the measure of us Brits and our historical record, doesn't he? We really haven't been at all nice, have we? After reading all that you had to say I don't think I like us very much at all. In fact, I now quite loathe us and I don't think I'll ever speak to us ever again I'm that wound up about it all. I think I'll emigrate to St Kilda!
Just imagine what may have happened had that jolly bunch of Puritans who set sail from rainswept, windswept Plymouth (England) in 1620 hadn't quite made it to Plymouth Rock (America). Say that had stopped off at the Azores for a tea break and some of those Devon scones with Devon cream and strawberry jam they had packed into their backpacks and decided to stay there beacuse it was a lovely sunny day.........why not settle there instead of on the unknown shores of some strange unknown continent still miles and miles and miles away across the ocean?
The whole linguistic future of the Americas may well have taken a different turning and it's anybody's guess whether modern day Americans may well be speaking either Dutch, French or Spanish rather than the tongue of the beastly English. Just imagine it - all the songs of later years - "New Amsterdam! New Amsterdam! A wonderful town! The Bronx is up and the Battery's down!" That would be years and years after the first settlers had landed on Rotterdam Rock and I wonder what name would have been given to the city later known as Boston? Ijmuiden? Alkmaar? Nijmegen? Just think of the massive market there would have been in throat pastilles had those nasty English Puritans not landed instead!
Is English your native Language anyway? If so, please do something about your spelling skills, especially your apparent confusion between C and S! :-) Oh - and my name, while your at it! But I'm used to being confused with a lad from a horror film, so dinnae fret too much!
Damian, how do you prefer your tea? My favourite would be Assam, with two spoons of brown sugar and the smallest amount of milk. And I don't like scones or sandwiches with it.
"Can we detect a homosexual from his accent?"
You can detect it from mine 100 miles away. Kiss my ass y'all. I'm the Chief-in-charge
You can detect it from mine 100 miles away. Kiss my ass y'all. I'm the Chief-in-charge
***Damian, how do you prefer your tea?***
Steaming hot, strong enough for the spoon to stand upright on its own, semi skimmed milk - NO sugar! - and in a huge mug emblazoned with the Hibernians logo.
Brown sugar in tea? What kind of weirdo are you? Brown sugar/ demerara, or whatever, is strictly for coffee. If you are one of the minority who takes sugar then we would allow you unrefined golden granulated - so much healthier.
Steaming hot, strong enough for the spoon to stand upright on its own, semi skimmed milk - NO sugar! - and in a huge mug emblazoned with the Hibernians logo.
Brown sugar in tea? What kind of weirdo are you? Brown sugar/ demerara, or whatever, is strictly for coffee. If you are one of the minority who takes sugar then we would allow you unrefined golden granulated - so much healthier.
If you are going to address me Greg, please do so in English, Latin, or Spanish. I can glean part of what you are saying in French, but after learning basics of it, I refused to learn more.
P.S. I don't think you should be given over to talking too much about executions given the history of Fance. And, by the way, I never denied that the U.S. has done some rather bad things in its history (infact I refferenaced some of them), I was mearly pointing out that there has been less deaths caused by American Imperialism than European. If you want a reference to it, I would suggest the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel". Also, you are correct in stating that the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen was writen before the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights. However, the Articles of Confederation, writen in 1781 served as an interum constitution for the United States. Durring that time the states functioned as individual nation-states united against the British Empire (thus the United States) and each had their own bill of rights:
"This bill of rights included many of the rights guaranteed by the current Bill of Rights, including: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, trial by jury, search warrant for property searches"
You , however, are correct about the Kingdom of Trinacria (Kingdom of Sicily). Bravo! Why on earth didn't the Puritans move there?
P.S. I don't think you should be given over to talking too much about executions given the history of Fance. And, by the way, I never denied that the U.S. has done some rather bad things in its history (infact I refferenaced some of them), I was mearly pointing out that there has been less deaths caused by American Imperialism than European. If you want a reference to it, I would suggest the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel". Also, you are correct in stating that the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen was writen before the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights. However, the Articles of Confederation, writen in 1781 served as an interum constitution for the United States. Durring that time the states functioned as individual nation-states united against the British Empire (thus the United States) and each had their own bill of rights:
"This bill of rights included many of the rights guaranteed by the current Bill of Rights, including: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, trial by jury, search warrant for property searches"
You , however, are correct about the Kingdom of Trinacria (Kingdom of Sicily). Bravo! Why on earth didn't the Puritans move there?
***I was mearly pointing out that there has been less deaths caused by American Imperialism than European****
Now isn't that an amazing fact to digest......given the fact that European history goes back over 2 millenia while modern America's goes back....what?......not quite 300 years at the very most? :-)
Greg certainly gives me the opportunity to practise my French translation and I so love the mental stimulation it gives me - when I falter a wee bit over certain words or expressions the on-line translation service is invaluable. Written French is really pleasing to look at, isn't it? As a Scot I can relate to it somehow - obviously the direct historical links between Scotland - my country - and France has something to do with that somehow.
btw Wintereis - it's "fewer deaths" - just to be truly pedantic! As is my wont..... Have a nice day - what's left of it your end.....today is almost tomorrow here now, give or take 28 minutes.
Now isn't that an amazing fact to digest......given the fact that European history goes back over 2 millenia while modern America's goes back....what?......not quite 300 years at the very most? :-)
Greg certainly gives me the opportunity to practise my French translation and I so love the mental stimulation it gives me - when I falter a wee bit over certain words or expressions the on-line translation service is invaluable. Written French is really pleasing to look at, isn't it? As a Scot I can relate to it somehow - obviously the direct historical links between Scotland - my country - and France has something to do with that somehow.
btw Wintereis - it's "fewer deaths" - just to be truly pedantic! As is my wont..... Have a nice day - what's left of it your end.....today is almost tomorrow here now, give or take 28 minutes.