Italy, how many separate languages?

Berlusconi   Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:20 am GMT
How many seperate languages are spoken in Italy? That is, not dialects of Italian.

Good night and good luck.
Mallorquí.   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:28 am GMT
French (rather francoprovençal, in Val d'Aosta), german, slovenian, friuli, greek, occitan, catalan (in L'Alguer, Sardinia), albanian.
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:31 am GMT
also Sardo, Napulitan and Venecian
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:34 am GMT
Dialects of Italian are: Toscano, Marcheggiano, Umbro, Laziano (with Romanesco) and L'aquilese. All other dialects of Italy are not dialect of Italian language, and therefore should be considered different languages (like Galoromance languages in the north, and romance languages in the South)
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:37 am GMT
<<also Sardo, Napulitan and Venecian>>

Those are dialects of Italian.
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:41 am GMT
Let's say the dialect of Milan: Milan dialect, it's not a dialect of Italian (just like Lower Scots dialect is not dialect of English), but a dialect/language of Italy. Not many people in Italy speak it...It survived only in the way locals (Milanese) pronounce the Italian language, instead of standard pronunciation based on Florence-Rome model, they have they own way of pronouncing written Italian which is inherited from the Milan dialect/language, so instead of the Milan dialect/language, they use the Milan accent: similar to Scottish people: a few use Lower Scottish, but they use the Scottish accent of English (Lower Scot disappeared but is influencing the local pronunciation of standard English).


Milanese is therefore, a dialect/language of Italy (dialetto /lingua d'Italia)
but it's not a dialect of Italian (language) (dialetto d'italiano). On the other hand, Umbro is both dialetto d'italia and dialetto d'italiano.
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:42 am GMT
<<also Sardo, Napulitan and Venecian>>

-Those are dialects of Italian.-



You are wrong.
Sardo, Napulitan and Venecian have nothing to do with the Italian language. It's just saying Welsh is a dialect of English. Go back to school.
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:47 am GMT
''Dialects of Italian and dialects of Italy

Dialects of Italian are regional varieties, more commonly and more accurate referred to as Regional Italian, with features of all sorts, most notably phonological and lexical, percolating from the underlying languages. Tuscan, and Central Italian in general, are in some respects not distant from Italian in linguistic features, due to Italian's history as derived from a somewhat polished form of Florentine. Nevertheless, the traditional speech of Tuscany is rightly viewed as part of the collection of Dialects of Italy. Some of the "dialects of Italy" should thus be considered distinct languages in their own right by some scholars, and actually are assigned to separate branches on the Romance language family tree by Ethnologue and others academic works. The Italian legislation recognise only two as proper language: Friulian and Sardinian, in fact their regions are recognised with a special status.

A clear example of the differences and the confusion between dialects of Italy and dialects of Italian is the following. Venetian language has a very different grammar from Italian. In Venetian language (dialect of Italy): we are arriving would be translated «sémo drio rivàr», which is very far from the Italian «stiamo arrivando». The Venetian dialect of Italian (inflessione veneziana) would be «stémo rivando», which is how a Venetian would colloquially pronounce the Italian «stiamo arrivando». However, due to the unfortunate fact that, in Italian, the two different definitions are often expressed with the same term "Dialetti italiani", it is a common conviction that all of them are varieties of standard Italian. So, Venetian language it is popularly held by some to be a variety derived from standard Italian, and the same is true for well-known languages which show considerable differences in grammar, syntax and vocabulary: for example, Neapolitan, Sicilian, and Gallo-Italic languages.

For historical, cultural and political reasons, "dialects of Italy" have not yet been given an official status, nor have they developed a unified written standard; only three (Sardinian, Ladin and Friulian) are considered as completely distinct languages. All the dialects of Italy exhibit internal variety, especially in Northern dialects, where the fragmentation in different states was harder and where there was isolation because of the mountains. For example Lombardy, when you can find at least three different and non-intercomprehensible linguistic groups (Western, Alpine and Eastern), also divided into six varieties, in which, then, there are differences in pronunciation, grammar and lexicon between a village and another (especially in Western Lombard): although, all the varieties spoken in Lombardy all conventionally referred to as Lombard language.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_dialects


Don't mix politics and linguistics.
Italian government considers many languages mere dialects in order to make them inferior, and not to give them rights.
Alessandro   Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:19 am GMT
For example Sardinian is older than Italian, that was until 150 years ago the regional language of Tuscany. In 1860 only 2.5% of Italians spoke Italian.
PARISIEN   Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:58 am GMT
Italian is just like German: a made-up language developed to offer a common standard to a dialect continuum that could have otherwise evolved into three (at least) different languages (as it happened in Spain).

Pure Italian is NOWHERE the native dialect. Even Tuscany has its own dialects! Just like people in Erfurt and Leipzig, supposedly the craddle of standard German, actually speak languages that are quite remote from Hochdeutsch (with accents that are especially disliked in the rest of the country).

Just like German, Italian was based on the dialects spoken in the central part of the country, was strongly influenced by the southern regions nearby (Rome), but is nowadays pronounced at its best by the educated urban class in the Northern regions (Milan = Hannover) ("Romanesco" is a little bit vulgar and blurry IMHO)

Friulan and Sardinian(s) are clearly different systems. Their relationship to the rest of Italy compares to German<—>Frisian.
Mallorquí.   Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:18 am GMT
J'avais oublié d'ajouter à ma liste le sarde, une langue à part entière, extrêmement fidèle au latin.

Voilà deux phrases en sarde du Logudoro:

1) Palumba mea est in domo tua (mon pigeon est chez toi).

2) Ita ora est? (Quelle heur est-il?).

Si cela vous intéresse, vous pouvez acheter la version sarde du Courier de l'Unesco.

Pour ce qui est du vénitien et du napolitain... enfin, tous les manuels de linguistique romane que j'ai consultés les rangent comme dialectes italiens, du même que la langue corse, qui n'est qu'un dialecte toscan.
PARISIEN   Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:07 am GMT
<< Pour ce qui est du vénitien et du napolitain... enfin, tous les manuels de linguistique romane que j'ai consultés les rangent comme dialectes italiens, du même que la langue corse, qui n'est qu'un dialecte toscan. >>

-- La distinction langue/dialecte est toujours arbitraire.
C'est un fait que dès le Moyen-Âge, avant même Dante, les poètes (et notaires) siciliens comme vénitiens tendaient à s'accorder sur une norme qui ressemblait déjà à un prototype du toscan littéraire.

Cependant, je crois assez bien connaître l'italien, mais ce qui se parle dans les petits villages de Sicile ou de Vénétie me fait le même effet que le suisse allemand, c'est à 99% incompréhensible!

Par contre, avec le corse guère de problème, j'en comprends les 3/4...
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:47 am GMT
''but is nowadays pronounced at its best by the educated urban class in the Northern regions (Milan = Hannover) ''

I beg to differ. While in Hannover, they speak perfect Hochdeutch, in Milan
they speak very lousy Italian, as far as pronunciation is concerned:

1. many vowels that are open (è) in Standard Italian, are closed (é) in Milanese:

vènto [standard Italian], vénto [Milanese] ''wind''
cènto [standard Italian], cénto [Milanese] ''hundred''
vèngo [standard Italian], véngo [Milanese] ''I come''
facèndo [standard Italian], facéndo [Milanese] ''doing''
bène [standard Italian], béne [Milanese] ''well''

Milan pronunciation of Standard Italian [è] is many times, a closed and somewhat nasalized [é], this is very nonstandard


2. many vowels that are closed [é] in Standard Italian, are open [è] in Milanese:


perché [standard Italian], perchè [Milanese] ''why''
ventitré [standard Italian], ventitrè [Milanese] ''twenty-three''

Milan people write these word the way they pronounce them, so, they are doing both phonetic mistake (substandard pronunciation), and spelling mistake (substandard orthography): perchè* instead of perché, ventitrè*
instead of ventiré, and so on

3. Milan people like pronouncing double consonants as single:

''cassa'' [ca:sa] instead of [cassa]
''ragno'' [ra:ño] instead of [rañño]

This also sounds substandard.


If I were to choose a region that speaks perfect Italian, it's Tuscany and Rome, people in formal situation speak impeccable Italian, although in informal register they might use some dialectal features. But, Milan speakers (think Berlusconi) even in the most formal situations speak non standard Italian, with wrong vowel used (open vowels instead of closed ones, and vice versa) and simplified doppia.
Vilella   Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:51 am GMT
Most doppiatori (people who give Italian voices for dubbing) are from Rome, not from Milan. And the most famous singers are from Rome and Tuscany. Laura Pausini is more famous outside of Italy, in her homeland she is mocked at because of her heavy Romagnolo accent.
Guest   Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:50 pm GMT
<< Friulan and Sardinian(s) are clearly different systems. Their relationship to the rest of Italy compares to German<—>Frisian. >>

Maybe it should have been German and Swiss German. And Sicilian is analogous to Austrian.