A bad sentence in need of correction

Tetsuo   Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:22 am GMT
Hi, folks!

Read the sentence below.

The picture on the bedroom wall, which Joe had painted, was damaged in the fire last night.

This is a bad sentence because it's unclear whehter Joe painted the picture, or the wall, or both.

If you want to clearly indicate that Joe painted the picture, not the wall, how will you rewrite this sentence into another single sentence?
Uriel   Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:28 am GMT
Where's Geoff when you need him? He loves this stuff...

<<The picture on the bedroom wall, which Joe had painted, was damaged in the fire last night.>>

The picture Joe had painted, on the bedroom wall, was damaged in the fire last night.


The picture, on the bedroom wall which Joe had painted, was damaged in the fire last night.
Brennus   Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:17 am GMT
I think that "The picture Joe had painted" can be condensed and rewritten as "Joe's painting."

Thus, we have two possibilities:

1) Last night, fire damaged Joe's painting on the bedroom wall.

2) Joe's painting on the bedroom wall was damaged in the fire last night.

Number one is a little thriftier.
Ben   Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:16 pm GMT
Yeh, one small adjustment I would make to the first sentence would be:

1) Last night, the fire damaged Joe's painting on the bedroom wall.

or

Last night, a fire damaged Joe's painting on the bedroom wall.

I'd put the 'the' or 'a' in there, because you need to specify which fire it was.

Ben
Tetsuo   Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:16 am GMT
Uriel, your fist sentence may be grammatical but the placement of the propositional phrase, on the wall, looks a bit awkward to me. Your second sentence clearly indicates that Joe painted the wall, not the pircture, because the relative pronoun which, is placed immediately next to the word wall.

Brenus & Ben, Joe's painting does not necessarily mean a painting painted by Joe; it can mean that Joe owns a painting which he did not paint.
Uriel   Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:36 am GMT
Well, I thought you might want both versions, since you were pointing out that the sentence was ambiguous about which thing Joe had painted, the wall or the painting. And I was trying to stay as close as possible to your original sentence, which I agree was difficult and awkward.
Guest   Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:44 am GMT
The picture Joe had painted, placed on the bedroom wall was damaged in the fire last night.
Geoff_One   Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:45 am GMT
<< Joe's painting does not necessarily mean a painting painted by Joe; it can mean that Joe owns a painting which he did not paint. >>

Try and apply Ockam's Razor to it - the best explanation for any phenomenon or puzzle is almost always the one that involves the least complexity.
Tetsuo   Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:47 pm GMT
Hello, Guest!

Mr. Incognito, do you have a name? Or is "Guest" really your name?
Tetsuo   Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:14 pm GMT
Hi, Uriel!

How about this?

The picture on the bedroom wall in my house built last year, which Joe painted 10 years ago, was damaged in the fire last night.

I added "in my house built last year" and "10 years ago" to the sentence to for a clarification, but the new sentence is awkward and may not be grammatical.

Tell me what you think about what I did to the original sentence.

I'm sorry I cheated a bit.
Geoff_One   Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:13 am GMT
The picture painted by Joe, which hangs on the bedroom wall, was damaged in the fire last night.

My Japanese version:

Joe ga shinshitsu na kabe no e o enoida wa hi no yube no aida ni
songai ga arimashita.
Uriel   Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:05 am GMT
I think for purposes of clarity, if you're going to have that much information, you should probably split it up into more than one sentence. The sentence you have is bulging at the seams, Tetsuo!
Geoff_One   Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:22 am GMT
<< My Japanese version:

Joe ga shinshitsu na kabe no e o enoida wa hi no yube no aida ni
songai ga arimashita. >>

Joe ga shinshitsu na kabe no e o enoida wa yube no hi no aida ni
songai ga arimashita.
Tetsuo   Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:35 am GMT
Geoff_One,

Excellant! Why couldn't I think of a sentence like yours? But shouldn't "hangs" be "hanged"?

My Japanese (nippongo) version:

Shinshitsu no kabe ni kaketeatta Joe-san ga kaita e wa yuube no kaji de higaiwo koumurimashita.

Geoff_one, are you a native speaker?

Do you speak and/or write Japanese?
Tetsuo   Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:40 am GMT
Uriel, you're absolutely right.

But if you split up the sentence into more than one, it will take all the fun out of the game, don't you think?