I do not understand WILL

Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:01 am GMT
My teacher says that will is for the future, but here it is only in the first example the future.


1) The children are tired. They’ll probably fall asleep quite soon.
2) It’s Saturday morning. The traffic will be very heavy right now.
3) Mary’s at school. She’ll be enjoying herself.
4) Most of you will know Professor Bryant from his many books and articles.
5) If it will rain, you’ll need your umbrella.

Was my teacher wrong?
guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:54 am GMT
absolutely wrong..
Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:48 am GMT
#5 should be "if it rains" -- a present form :). Of course there's no rule that says "will" is always used to refer to future events, but it usually is. 2,3,4 are really all the same form, easily identified by the context.
Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:47 am GMT
- If it is going to rain, you’ll need your umbrella. - is also possible.
Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:56 am GMT
xx#5 should be "if it rains" -- a present form :).xx

Can you please explain why?
Matt   Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:35 am GMT
Because there is no logical future in English. "If I go shopping tomorrow" is correct, and not "if I will go shopping". When English children learn French, the "logical future" after if is hard to grasp.
Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:38 am GMT
xxBecause there is no logical future in English. xx

What does "logical future" mean?
Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:22 pm GMT
In these contexts it implies there's a slight element of doubt. You don't say something 'is' happening, because you're not totally sure, but you think it very probably is.
Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:43 pm GMT
xx In these contexts it implies there's a slight element of doubt. You don't say something 'is' happening, because you're not totally sure, but you think it very probably is. xx

So what would be a good explanation of how "will" (aux.) is used in English?
Matt   Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:02 pm GMT
Don't use "will" after "if".

"I said I wouldn't do it, but if I do do it for you, I hope you are grateful".

In other contexts, the use of "will" is as expected. I will have dinner at 8 tonight. If we have dinner at 8, we will miss the show.
Guest   Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:12 pm GMT
>>So what would be a good explanation of how "will" (aux.) is used in English?<<

Most of the time it is used simply to express the future. I suppose the examples you gave (excluding the if..will one which is wrong) are somewhat idiomatic. In all of them you could add an 'I'm sure' and then just 'is/are'. i.e.

'Mary's at school. I'm sure she is enjoying herself'.
Leasnam   Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:27 pm GMT
<<Don't use "will" after "if". >>

This only applies to use of 'will' for the future, otherwise, 'will' after 'if' is acceptable in other situtations

cf.
"Do this if you will."
"You can refer to this as a 'steroetypical hunch', if you will."
"If someone will have me, I'll gladly get my things."

The confusion arising from 'will' is that it was not originally used as a future marker, but it was a present tense modal (auxilliary). It has been "squeezed" into this role because English lacks a true distinctive future tense, so one shouldn't ever associate 'will' as the end-all of English future tense indicators.
Matt   Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:09 am GMT
"If you will" means "if you are willing to, if you want to".

"If someone will have me, I'll gladly get my things." That means "if someone is prepared to have me"; it is not a future tense. As you say, this was the origin of the use of will as an auxiliary verb in the future tense. But this has nothing to do with the logical future.

"The confusion arising from 'will'"... er... what confusion?
Guest   Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:36 pm GMT
<<Because there is no logical future in English. "If I go shopping tomorrow" is correct, and not "if I will go shopping". When English children learn French, the "logical future" after if is hard to grasp.>>

There is no future in the equivalent French sentence either : « Si je vais faire les courses demain ».
Guest   Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:19 am GMT
Seems like no one here really knows how "will" is used in English. Lots of "you mustn't do...", but no real explanations about why.