I do not understand WILL

We have explained fully. I can't really help it if you still don't understand.

Je vais faire - well, "I am going to do" is not a future conjugation, but then as someone pointed out neither is "I will do". We use auxiliary verbs to construct a future in English in the absence of a conjugated future, and so je vais faire is an auxiliary verb construction with future meaning in the same way. To see the difference, can you say: je fais des courses demain?

How do you say "when I have finished" in French? Quand j'aurai fini? Or, if not, how? Anyway, such a sentence in English would not be future perfect.

<<Je vais faire - well, "I am going to do" is not a future conjugation, but then as someone pointed out neither is "I will do".>>

"Je vais faire" is not translated to "I am going to do" here, as "vais" is merely the translation of "go". "I go" -> "je vais". Both are the exact same present conjugation.

If you still don't get it, let's just rephrase the translation and say "Si je fais les courses demain", which has the exact same meaning. Where are you going to find a future, this time, I wonder.

Your claim was that :

<<"If I go shopping tomorrow" is correct, and not "if I will go shopping". When English children learn French, the "logical future" after if is hard to grasp.>>

... which seemed to imply that in French you DO say "if I will go shopping tomorrow".

That would be translated to "Si je ferai les courses demain", but you don't say that in French. You use the present form of the verb "faire" (to do), exactly as you do in English : « Si je fais les courses demain ». In this particular construction, a future would be incorrect.


<<We use auxiliary verbs to construct a future in English in the absence of a conjugated future, and so je vais faire is an auxiliary verb construction with future meaning in the same way.>>

Not at all, not in this sentence. It is merely the verb "to go", only translated into French. It was already there in the original sentence which you say does not use a future.

<<To see the difference, can you say: je fais des courses demain?>>

Of course you can say "je fais des courses demain" ! And if you have to start with if, (as in "if I go shopping tomorrow, then etc."), you HAVE to say it in French as "si je fais les courses demain, alors etc." You cannot use the future, which was your claim.

Another antimoon moron. "I will" is not future tense either.

I think Western education systems are declining and producing a new crop of people who cannot cogitate properly.

I did not say "si je fais des courses demain". My point was - I hate explaining things over and over again to people with the intellectual abilities of a 5-year old - is that "je fais" and "je vais faire" have a fundamental difference. One refers to what you are presently doing. The other refers to what you are going to do. Let me point out for our resident moron, that "what you are going to do" is present tense in form in English too. (Why do I have to explain these things to you?) "I will do" is also present tense in form in English (I want to do). Now, whether the French language also lacks a logical future after si in some circumstances is quite another issue. To think logically, you need to be able to separate things out in your mind and then go through them bit by bit. By confusing things, you will never be able to reach any valid conclusion.

<<Je vais faire" is not translated to "I am going to do" here, as "vais" is merely the translation of "go". >>

If "je vais faire" does not mean "I am going to do", what are you saying it means? Re-read that sentence of yours three times before responding. You have noticed "vais" is present tense, but then I told you above "I am going" is.... present tense. Are you beginning to cogitate yet?

If the French say "si je fais des courses demain", then that is an exact equivalent to the English - and there is therefore no excuse for French people to get the English use of "will" wrong. Under what circumstances is the logical future used in French? Your failure to be able to think properly means that you should have started your post with an explanation that "si je fais" is in fact good French, and not with a claim that "je vais faire" does not mean "I am going to do". You did that because you cannot think clearly.

<< <<We use auxiliary verbs to construct a future in English in the absence of a conjugated future, and so je vais faire is an auxiliary verb construction with future meaning in the same way.>>

Not at all, not in this sentence. It is merely the verb "to go", only translated into French. It was already there in the original sentence which you say does not use a future. >>

You are confusing yourself. Je vais faire means "I am going to do". That is a construction present in form and future in meaning in both languages.

You do not explain under what circumstances the logic future is used in French.

Is it after "quand" that the logical future is used in French? Eg "quand j'arriverai" instead of "quand j'arrive"?

Please reply only if you know the answer and make the post informative for others. Do not post to say "je vais faire" does not mean "I am going to do".

Well, in any case, after "if" and "when" in English there is no "will".

If I do this...
When I arrive...

NOT

if I will do this..
when Iwill arrive...

<<"what you are going to do" is present tense in form in English too.>>

There is no "going to do" in the French sentence. A "going to do" would be "I am going to go shopping" which would translate to "je vais aller faire les courses". See how the French repeat vais+aller... exactly like the English does with going+go ! This is obviously not the sentence I was originally translating.


<<If "je vais faire" does not mean "I am going to do", what are you saying it means?>>

The sentence is "Si je vais faire les courses". The sentence I translated it from was "If I go shopping". So of course it translates back into English as "If I go shopping"...

Je=I, vais=go, faire les courses=shopping. That's pretty straighforward and, that was my point, the conjugation is exactly the same in both languages, so there is no way one is future and the other is not. Vais is simple present, exactly like go.


<<Re-read that sentence of yours three times before responding. You have noticed "vais" is present tense, but then I told you above "I am going" is.... present tense.>>

And so is "I go", which is the correct translation.


<<If the French say "si je fais des courses demain", then that is an exact equivalent to the English - and there is therefore no excuse for French people to get the English use of "will" wrong.>>

That was exactly my point. In your example, which you thought would illustrate a difference between English and French, both languages actually work exactly the same way. Will you finally understand it and admit it ?


<<you should have started your post with an explanation that "si je fais" is in fact good French, and not with a claim that "je vais faire" does not mean "I am going to do".>>

"je vais faire" does not mean "I am going to do" in that sentence, no.

Chose another verb than "to go shopping", a verb without "go" in it, and you will see that it is not possible to throw in "vais", which proves it is really part of the verb itself (aller faire les courses = to go shopping) and not added on for conjugation purposes as you claim it is.

Since you don't seem very bright, I'll do that for you :

If you wake up tomorrow -> Si tu te réveilles demain



<<You are confusing yourself. Je vais faire means "I am going to do". That is a construction present in form and future in meaning in both languages. >>

"Je vais faire les courses" is translated to "I go shopping". There is no meaning of future in either sentence. A future in meaning would be "je vais aller faire les courses".


You made a mistake with your example and are unable to admit it -- or maybe even understand it. As a result, you look like an idiot.

Guest - you hide behind Guest - I am not sure whether you are a native speaker of French because you hide behind anonymity. I read about 2lines of your post, so I can only comment on 2 lines. As for the rest - I presume it is the usual cretin stuff, but can't be bothered to look. Did you get round to quand+logical future or not?

<<There is no "going to do" in the French sentence. A "going to do" would be "I am going to go shopping" which would translate to "je vais aller faire les courses". See how the French repeat vais+aller... exactly like the English does with going+go ! This is obviously not the sentence I was originally translating. >>


Now, moron, you previously said "je vais faire" - that was the sentence - does not mean "I am going to do". Now you say above "je vais aller" is "I am going to go". So you see, you are forced to admit that the vais+infinitive structure is exactly equivalent to going+infinitive in English. See the second paragraph of your 8:00am post above to see that the sentence was "je vais faire". YOu slide around raising other different sentences.... but they were not the sentence. The fact you slide around just means you know you are wrong.

I have been crystal clear in this thread, so I am not repeating myself 1000 times for someone whose IQ level indicates he is probably more Algerian than French. You drag the French population down from a eugenic point of view.

<<Now, moron, you previously said "je vais faire" - that was the sentence - does not mean "I am going to do". Now you say above "je vais aller" is "I am going to go". So you see, you are forced to admit that the vais+infinitive structure is exactly equivalent to going+infinitive in English.>>

Man, where did they get you from ? Not only are your grammatical skills dreadful but you can't even follow your own reasoning.

There is no "vais + infinitive structure" in my sentence that would indicate a future. That's the whole point. "Aller faire les courses" works as just one verb, or verbal group, as evidenced by the fact that you can add another "aller" (vais) in front of all that : "vais aller faire les courses". THAT is a "vais + infinitive structure" indicating a future. The other is not.

The verbal group is the translation of the English "to go shopping". To go = aller, shopping = faire les courses. Does not get any easier than that. The "go/vais" part IS IN THE ORIGINAL SENTENCE. "Je vais faire les courses" is merely the conjugation of that verb in the present form.

Matt : « Je vais faire - well, "I am going to do" is not a future conjugation, but then as someone pointed out neither is "I will do". »

Exact. Mais la périphrase <aller + V-inf> peut avoir une **valeur** de futur. Tout comme la périphrase <venir de + V-inf>, avec **valeur** de passé. Dans ces deux cas, <aller> & <venir de> sont des semi-auxiliaires servant à exprimer la temporalité de proximité : <je vais voir> {je verrai → mais plus proche du présent} & <je viens de manger> {j'ai mangé → mais plus proche du présent}.





Matt : « To see the difference, can you say: je fais des courses demain? ».

Oui : <je fais des courses demain>, <je ferai des courses demain>, <je vais faire des courses demain>, <j'irai faire des courses demain>.

NB : <je vais faire des courses demain> (verbe <aller faire> au présent grammatical avec valeur de futur) vs <je vais faire des courses dans dix minutes> (verbe <faire> + semi-auxiliaire <aller> avec valeur de futur proche). Le problème c'est qu'on peut employer <faire des courses> ou <aller faire des courses> sans vraiment changer le sémantisme véhiculé.

Nuances :
<je paierai demain> (futur)
<je vais payer demain> (périphrase avec valeur de futur, présenté comme proche)
<je paie demain> (présent avec valeur de futur, présenté comme quasi-certain)
<j'ai payé demain> (passé composé avec valeur de futur accompli quasi-certain)
<j'aurai payé demain> (futur antérieur avec valeur de futur accompli).

Attention :
<j'irai payer> {je me déplacerai pour payer}
<je suis allé payer> {je me suis déplacé pour payer}
<j'allais payer> {je me déplaçais pour payer}{j'étais sur le point de payer}
<je vais payer> {je me déplace pour payer} {je paierai bientôt}.

Exemples :

<j'irai la payer demain>
{demain, je me déplacerai pour la payer}

<je suis allé payer mes créanciers mardi dernier>
{mardi dernier, je me suis déplacé pour payer mes créanciers}

<tous les samedis, j'allais payer mes créanciers>
{tous les samedis, je me déplaçais pour payer mes créanciers}

<j'allais payer mes créanciers quand le tribunal annula ma dette>
{j'étais sur le point de payer mes créanciers mais ma dette fut annulée}

<c'est samedi ; je vais payer mes créanciers>
{comme tous les samedis, je me déplace pour payer mes créanciers}

<je vais vous payer ; je vous le jure>
{je vous paierai bientôt ; je m'y engage}.





Matt : « How do you say "when I have finished" in French? Quand j'aurai fini? Or, if not, how? Anyway, such a sentence in English would not be future perfect. »

<quand j'ai fini> (passé composé → ici, accompli du futur annexé au présent)
<quand j'aurai fini> (futur antérieur → ici, accompli du futur)





Matt : « Is it after "quand" that the logical future is used in French? Eg "quand j'arriverai" instead of "quand j'arrive"? ».

<quand j'arrive> (présent → futur annexé au présent)
<quand je suis arrivé> (passé composé → futur accompli annexé au présent)
<quand j'arriverai> (futur)
<quand je vais arriver> (périphrase → futur proche)
<quand je serai arrivé> (futur antérieur → futur accompli)


Exemples (parmi d'autres combinaisons & interprétations possibles) :

<téléphone-moi demain quand j'arrive chez eux>
{tu me contacteras demain à mon arrivée}

<téléphone-moi demain quand je suis arrivé chez eux>
{tu me contacteras demain, dès mon arrivée ou plus tard}

<tu me téléphoneras/téléphones demain quand j'arriverai chez eux>
{contacte-moi demain à mon arrivée}
{tu devras/dois attendre mon arrivée, demain, et me contacter aussitôt}

<tu vas me téléphoner demain quand j'arriverai/arrive chez eux>
{contacte-moi demain, à mon arrivée}
{je devine/j'imagine que tu me contacteras demain, à mon arrivée}
{je te propose/suggère de me contacter demain, à mon arrivée}

<tu me téléphoneras/téléphones demain quand je serai/suis arrivé chez eux>
{tu me contacteras/contactes demain, dès mon arrivée ou plus tard}

<tu vas me téléphoner demain quand je serai/suis arrivé chez eux>
{contacte-moi demain, dès mon arrivée ou plus tard}
{je devine/j'imagine que tu me contacteras demain, dès mon arrivée ou plus tard}
{je te propose/suggère de me contacter demain, dès mon arrivée ou plus tard}

etc.

!!Let me point out for our resident moron, that "what you are going to do" is present tense in form in English too. (Why do I have to explain these things to you?) !!

I've not been a member here for very long, but can anyone please tell me why people are allowed to be as rude as Matt, above? Is there no moderation of these threads?

>>>Guest - you hide behind Guest - I am not sure whether you are a native speaker of French because you hide behind anonymity.<<<

You seem to have knowledge of language use, but you use the language rudely. What's your problem? Were you never taught manners?

Matt said 'Don't use "will" after "if".'

But why? Why does "if" negate the use of "will"?

"Will" may be seen in two ways:

1) A non-factual state seen by the speaker a "inevitable" given the state prevailing at the moment of speaking.
2) A state which is psychologically immediate for the speaker although not known factually.

On different occasions one or other of these alternative descriptions of "will" is slightly more convenient. Both involve the speaker's immediate perception of the situation at the point Now.

How does this, from David Willis, writer of The Lexical Syllabus, compare with Matt's words below?

Willis:

"We produce language in accordance with a complex system of rules. Most people, even though they are successful language users, are quite unable to give anything but the most rudimentary statements about how that system works."

Matt:

"I hate explaining things over and over again to people with the intellectual abilities of a 5-year old -"

"Now, moron, you previously said "je vais faire" - that was the sentence - does not mean "I am going to do". "

"Man, where did they get you from ? Not only are your grammatical skills dreadful but you can't even follow your own reasoning. "