Which foreign language is the most easy to learn for native?

Shuimo   Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:16 am GMT
<<I don't find Mandarin difficult at all since it is analytic and doesn't contain much unfamiliar grammar for a native English speaker. In other words, it doesn't have much morphology. >>

Steve is also right in pointing out that.
Chinese and English share one great similarity in that both the languages are largely analytic. Its basic sentence structure and grammar is quite simple, as Damian called it "the rudiments".
Shuimo   Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:28 am GMT
As I observe it, the reason why many foreigners find Chinese difficult to learn indeed has a lot to do with the exterior shape of what Chinese looks like. At the very outset, its characters present such a different and "odd" visual effect to the eyes that are usually attuned to alphabetical writing systems we usually see. This fact alone probably has fightened away many people before they attempt to learn it.
Shuimo   Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:23 am GMT
As a compatriot of yours, Xie, I would like to point out some remarks and views you made here that I have to seriously disagree with you, and share my comments with you and other posters. (I live in the mainland, so you may say and expect my perspective is certainly different from yours)
Shuimo   Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:24 am GMT
1 <<.... this doesnt change the fact that Mandarin, while being "declared" a national language nationwide (and in Taiwan as well) and a standard language in this territory as well, the dominant language used in daily conversations are NEVER in Mandarin except when people use it for pejorative purposes... >>

Concerning the linguistic map of Hong Kong, particularly with respect to the status of Chinese in the region, one important distinction has to be made between Mandarin Chinese (which is what you repeatedly call as the "supposedly" national language, in fact also known as “putonghua” across the Chinese mainland) and Cantonese (which is one of the many dialects of the Chinese language but certainly the most influential one apart from the Beijing dialect, mainly spoken in the southern Guangdong Province (also known as Canton in the West) and the neighboring Hong Kong region). What is more, given Hong Kong’s history – a colony under the British rule for about 150 years – and its status as an international financial center today, English is also widely used in Hong Kong, and is in fact written down as one of the two official languages of Hong Kong in the Basic Law of Hong Kong SAR. So in Hong Kong, there are two languages in currency – Chinese and English. More specifically, there are three tongues spoken in the region – Mandarin Chinese, Cantonese and English. The dominant tongue used in daily conversations in Hong Kong is neither Mandarin Chinese nor English, but Cantonese, though Mandarin Chinese’s status is rising steadily, particularly in the tourism and hospitality industries, with English remaining as an influential language for international communication.

I don’t know to what extent your statement is true, that is, the only time when Mandarin Chinese is used in daily conversations in Hong Kong is when people use it for pejorative purposes. If that is the case, I am curious to be enlightened by your further account.

BTW, what I see here in the mainland, at least from my screen viewing experience, is an increasing number of Hong Kong pop singers and actors speak ever more fluent Mandarin Chinese, particularly among the younger generation in the showbiz.
Shuimo   Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:26 am GMT
2 <<I couldnt be considering this national language from a non-Chinese perspective; but take my word if you want: personally, if a language like this ("supposedly national" and getting more popular ever in many countries) still lets you have some "who cares?" responses, then most probably it isn't really worth you time, either. (Then, by superficial common sense, that's darn hard and impossible as well.)>>
<<As I see it at university, every Chinese like me, or a real northerner, has to submit to English anyway, so I can imagine "who cares?" responses.>>

Are you seriouly suggesting that the Chinese language isn’t really worth any learners’ (here of course you mean foreign learners) time since, according to your criterion, the "supposedly national" language just lets you get some “who cares?” responses?

Hope you were just joking. But I doubt. Even what you said about the status of Chinese language (whether being Mandarin Chinese or Cantonese) is true of Hong Kong, it is certainly not the case here in the mainland, where Mandarin Chinese is undoubtedly the dominating tongue spoken by the majority of the total population (about 70% of the total) . Ordinary people use it for any purpose as they see it fit their needs. I personally think foreigners most probably tend to have more of the situation of the Chinese mainland in mind on decisions related to the Chinese language.

I feel a bit puzzled by what you meant by “every Chinese like me, or a real northerner, has to submit to English anyway”.
For the Chinese people living an international city like Hong Kong, that can be true. But again in the mainland, it is not. English is important here, particularly so within the educational system. It is taught as a required course in middle schools and colleges, and in some big cities, even taught to kids in primary schools or even kindergartens. But once students are out of schools, English learning usually becomes a matter of personal choice. This largely depends on what line of profession you are engaged in. Claiming every Chinese has to submit to English is absolutely an exaggeration.
BTW, I do personally hope that there can be as many people as possible in China who can use English competently, which is good for the country and the world.
Shuimo   Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:28 am GMT
3 <<shouldn't be saying that my language should be competing with English elsewhere outside both of our countries, but their relative difference in strength is so obvious even in a territory now belonging to China herself. And while everybody has use English every so often in my country, its "potential" competitor (I dont know about your people) is just too weak to speak of. >>
<<in its newest territory, which once belonged to your country, even my bitter competitors from the North are now struggling with GRE, IELTS, TOEFL... you name it.... to become the future elites of China with university qualifications. If China should be (and yes, I do it happening, or going to happen) your ideal, huge, lucrative economy, .... >>

In response to your remarks unrelated to language studies, I have to point out one point you made which I can disagree no less with. Hong Kong has always been the territory of China, and has NEVER BELONGED to any other country. What China lost was the right of sovereignty over Hong Kong, which now has been restored. For Chinese students struggling with GRE exams to pursue further degrees abroad, nothing wrong about that. Does this necessarily have anything to do with the issue of Chinese as a “potential competitor” to English, as you claimed?
Shuimo   Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:30 am GMT
4 <<I just can't see why Chinese should be that important, when it can't even be used in CREATING institutions, CREATING new ideas, new texts (such as literature, political philosophy, pop culture...).... like how English, French, and German had been.>>
<<now, for those of us who still care about our country, we think this new country, after wars, political turmoil, etc, really lacks something like "culture", "respect", "morality">>

To be frank with you, when I read these posts of yours, I hardly believed this was written by a college-educated person and my Hong Kong compatriot. What you said here seems to me like “crazy talk”, when the word “Chinese” can be easily replaced by any other language, without the slightest scientific evidence nor solid facts to support your “wild” claim, not just in each of the fields you listed here. It is a pity that you thought that way. Anyway, I do think you raised an important issue hidden here, that is, the relationship between the strength of a language and the people who speak that language. That is a topic open to disputes.
I think your opinion of and confidence in the Chinese nation and the Chinese language is too low. I hope this is not the result of the tainted milk scandal, about which I and the whole of ordinary Chinese people feel the same way you did. Cheer up, remember the Chinese saying, “The prospect ahead is bright, but the road forward is winding.” O(∩_∩)O
K. T.   Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:36 pm GMT
I'm not a linguist, but I've studied more languages than I want to admit here. Usually I've studied them because I've needed them, or I was encouraged strongly by other people to learn them. Now, I've started to study languages just because I like them.

That's my background.

Dutch is close to English, but that doesn't mean that it will be easy for everyone to learn. English speakers who also know German will find that they can READ a fair amount of Dutch. I'm not sure how long it will take to have a native-sounding accent in Dutch. I'm not there yet.

Spanish and French are very good languages for the so-called "budding" polyglot. I suggest foregoing any of the usual S-F language rivalry we read here and learn both of them if you are in high school. If you are an adult, you should choose one that interests you or one you'll be likely to use. They are the two easiest languages I've learned to speak. Whatever you do, put in the time to pronounce the language(s) correctly.

German shares a lot of vocabulary with English. It's not difficult to pronounce and there is a easy familiarity when reading it.

One thing to consider when looking for an "easy" language is the availability of material in the languages and whether or not you'll be able to get any conversational practice. French, Spanish, German and to a lesser extent, Italian, are widely available in the United States. I haven't been to Britain for a few years, so I don't know what's available there.
Colloquial by Routledge is good in some languages.

Audio Forum used to have advanced materials for less popular languages, but I haven't checked recently. Penton Overseas also has some advanced materials. This is important. You don't want to get excited about some language, then find your progress is slow because there is no readily available intermediate or advanced texts/recordings.

Japanese is readily available and easy to pronounce, but for me, Japanese was the hardest language I ever learned to speak or read. On the other hand, some people are so enthusiastic about Japanese, that their love of the culture or anime drives them to learn it. Love can make things seem easier (aw...).

One other thing. If you have access to native speakers, that can make your choice obvious and easier. There isn't one answer to this question.
Xie   Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:59 am GMT
>>I don’t know to what extent your statement is true, that is, the only time when Mandarin Chinese is used in daily conversations in Hong Kong is when people use it for pejorative purposes. If that is the case, I am curious to be enlightened by your further account.

Naturally, some really mean people, just like the same mean people elsewhere, are complaining how mainland students are flocking into local universities and.... personally, my observation is, yes, today I over-hear (unintentionally) far more conversations in the canteen in Mandarin than any others. It's only in the afternoon... that more locals come to have some tea and toasts. But this isnt of any concern to me. I see this as a golden opportunity, and as I wrote, it wont change the fact, or the tendency that I can see, that we're going to "outgrow" Hong Kong universities and then, like our more affluent counterparts, flock into foreign universities... the future elites among us would have a lot of foreign qualifications (which would be good for our country).

>>Are you seriouly suggesting that the Chinese language isn’t really worth any learners’ (here of course you mean foreign learners) time since, according to your criterion, the "supposedly national" language just lets you get some “who cares?” responses?

Perhaps you arent used to my style. LOL, I used to write even more vaguely...

I should say this may be a bit of a stereotype, but I dont have to judge our language in linguistic terms that seriously (why so serious?), which would be .... to pretend to be objective is hypocritical.

No, before our compatriots come up with excellent institutions and excellent ideas and excellent elites... when you can just de-familiarize yourself a bit with your (and my) own culture, clearly a developing country isn't really a good choice even for us to study in. I think you should know clearly what is going on even in the biggest cities - excellent students, but, well, "poor" administration, "poor" teaching staff... (as people claim).

==

Quite on the contrary, while I shouldnt say I do have bad feelings about having to write English all the time for studying purposes, I know the reality is our language is just so poor... now (but very probably, not in the future) to be an academic language. Basically, my prejudice (yes, you may put it) is many locals just suck in Chinese. The main culprit, eh, socio-linguists say "having to be that native in Chinese" is very subjective-ish, very prescriptivist-ish, very stereotypical-ish, bla bla bla!

They can of coz (and often should) be politically correct, but this doesnt change my own perception: I think Chinese, in Hong Kong, for example, is pretty much "tainted" by English, and while I personally wont mind code-mixing quite a bit for economy reasons, i think quite a few of us really suck in this language... unlike... for example, even those who live in Guangzhou.

And I'm glad to see your analysis. With the language level like yours and mine, it's only a matter of time before "we" boost the power of Chinese, at least at the university.

==

(didn't I say it earlier? perhaps u didnt see. It's been disastrous for this ex-colony to adopt English as the only official language at university, and I'm afraid almost nowhere else can you find "fluent" (with a very clear, awful accent to my ears, and mine only, hopefully) speakers of English...

In a materialistic culture, and ironically as an English major (which I still find it difficult to claim) and as one of the very few, among many, who can see thru all such linguistic stuff (thru taking related courses... but even so, many people just won't read reading stuff carefully, if at all), for me the issue of sovereignty is sort of like: both the academic authorities... and some of us... well, that's hard to say without over-generalizing...by official they dont mean much, and you should understand definitions are easy to manipulate.

I understand the linguistic situation is quite natural, and actually, as most of us would agree "tacitly", this language is... you can't even say hard, when most of them (as contrasted to "us") can't even get the hang of it, and it isn't used (thus not useful, according to me) in most subjects at all, except in the Chinese department.

Basically, many of us simply have to submit, or kowtow, to the English language, though everybody won't say so...

NOW, I won't say my English is insufficient for undergraduate studies, and actually it's a perfect good thing to continue learning it for such purposes, but obviously, to the best of my knowledge, there are far more instances in which people find it difficult to understand the books, the ideas, and the theories of academic subjects (political science, history, and even foreign languages... mostly those with heavy reading)... for purely linguistic reasons ("what does this word mean in English?") THAN because they cant understand the theoretical framework itself.

In the same setting, as I observed too, some European students here also meet the same kind of language barriers. And even for Anglophones (Brits, Americans...), chances are the instructors themselves fail to understand every single word, not to mention the academic meanings of it.

==

Then, of coz, it'd be impractical (for Hongkongers, who love business so much, even at universities) to expect people to know their local language - which could be a very convenient reason, not to say excuse, to put everything in English ("to attract overseas scholars to teach here"). While the Anglo-American schooling system sounds great to me (in practice, too), by "international" Hong Kong is simply remaining a spoilt child that can't earn university qualifications in his mother's language (namely Chinese). Indeed, as a child who would have been raised in the mainland, I see this as a terribly sad thing for our ex-colonial time generations.

Why should this city maintain the high (this is disputable, but come to Hong Kong, and you may see why, literally) status of English? to be "international"? If that's for the good (in business terms) of our country, then fine.

I didn't put this before: I also think...indeed... the future, natural, most acceptable way that the city becomes is that "English" remains, "ok, ok", an official language, but as just like its Portuguese counterpart in Macau. At any rate, as an advanced reader/writer of English (I don't speak it very well, huh), I personally experienced all the kinds of prejudices AGAINST CHINESE at the school, in the company, and even in socializing (where English names are preferred to Chinese personal names, even though everybody in the conversation is Chinese)....

only "bright" children could/can enter schools that taught/teach all non-Chinese subjects in English; I was one of them; and now I'm often struggling with this tradition, in myself, in cultural terms. I would find it a shame not to understand matters in my own language, which I used it all my life, and once I was even asked if I were a Chinese major. Poor Hong Kong kids who "aren't" competent in both languages. (I won't care how politically correct linguists should/are supposed to be)
Xie   Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:16 am GMT
In short, I should tell you that kowtow-ing (yeah, I do think this is a bit too much soap-box-ish, but just listen a bit...) is a common practice here becoz people only care about business (generally, and very very generally).

Shortly before and after 1997, they used to rant against Mandarin for being .... i don't know... low-culture, vulgar, commie... and so on. Today, "really mean people" still rant, but since the business scene has changed, Mandarin has been on the rise... (which is great, for me)

but even so, quite a few of my generation find it difficult to go further. They would either think it's difficult to learn better, or they just won't care about it. Quite a few of us remain far more competent in English (with those accents) than in the "national language".

Then, the question becomes purely utilitarian: Hong Kong used to kowtow to English for obvious reasons (its local language was recognized only since the 1970s); now, it kowtows more to Mandarin, but it actually kowtows to both. I'm just here to show you how our business works.

In that case, however, there would be no absolute rights or wrongs in voicing your opinion about language choice. If I were born much earlier, I would have been kowtow-ing more English and remain very incompetent in Mandarin; now that I think about it, more than a decade after 1997, while I don't agree with everything (quite on the contrary, quite little) that my country does in political terms, ... in linguistic terms...

It was only after 1997 (in this city) and around the 1990s (for my country) that "I" can speak of strength. Before it, as you know, this country simply never enjoyed the much-needed peace to do anything with culture. Now, it's different. Just like some Americans who, if I'm not mistaken, tacitly say "my language is still the most important, and always spoken by different peoples out there, beyond our borders... but I can still learn a lot of lingoes to understand them, great!", I can indeed now take the very pride, along with my compatriots, to speak of strength.

(that is also why, if you treat forum posts seriously and personally, I can also tell that there are some kids who still say 港英統治 is [to them, emotionally] better than what the 北大人 and their servants do here in Hong Kong after 1997, but I hope they are the minority. At least, I'm letting you see out there some guys aren't really distance themselves from their ever-been compatriots, despite their diverse historical cultural background)
Xie   Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:20 am GMT
>>Love can make things seem easier (aw...).

Huh? Why?

(back to the topic) I'm dying to know... actually, I'm expecting some interesting small talks about cultural stereotypes - pardon me, but this is the default step that I start with in this case.
Guest   Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:33 am GMT
Spanish (castellano o español) is usually considered the easiest foreign language for a typical English speaker.
Guest   Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:10 am GMT
Definitely Afrikaans is the easiest. An English speaker would be able to pick it up quite quickly.
Shuimo   Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:00 am GMT
Xie, thank you for informing me of the linguistic grassroots realities of Hong Kong, about which I believed every word, trust me! This is certainly not a satisfying situation, or rather, far from satisfying, at least to me. I just think all this is intrinsically and inescapably linked to the history of Hong Kong as under the British colonial rule for more than one and a half centuries, during which time English was virtually the only official language in the region. It is not difficult to understand the different attitudes and “stereotypes”, as you call it, local Hongkongers hold towards Chinese and English respectively. I consider what the <<socio-linguists say "having to be that native in Chinese" is very SUBJECTIVE-ISH, very PRESCRIPTIVIST-ISH, very STEREOTYPICAL-ISH, bla bla bla!” >>(Capital letters are mine) as NONSENSE and TRASH TALK, pure and sound! Believe me!
Shuimo   Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:03 am GMT
Anyway, Hong Kong has been handed over to the motherland for just a decade or so. 10 years versus 150 years! The Britishmen could go away overnight, but the mental, psychological, linguistic, political…cultural impacts and legacies they left to Hong Kong could not, not to mention that English is still the world’s dominating language for international communciation. But things are changing! I think you must be familiar with this saying, “for 30 years to the east of a river, for another 30 years to the west of river”, China today has been undergoing massive transformations, not least economically, since the introduction of opening-up and reform policies 30 years ago. If China were still what it used to be, say, 30 or 50 years ago, whether Hong Kong could be successfully handed over to her hands would be highly questionable for reasons known to anyone with a knowledge of international relations, to say nothing of Mandarin Chinese being discussed on a par with English in Hong Kong. You see here, at the end of the day, it turns out that the knotty issue of language in Hong Kong or I might say anywhere else that had a colonial experience boils down to power relations, over which individuals are left with little control. Personally speaking, I understand Hong Kong people’s ambivalent feelings about coming under the rule of the Chinese mainland’s government, though not directly, and for fast changing realities in the mainland along with its impact upon Hong Kong, it will certainly take Hong Kong locals enormous getting-used-to, be they “really mean people” or “kids who still say 港英統治 is [to them, emotionally] better than what the 北大人 and their servants do here in Hong Kong after 1997”.