What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language

Ouest   Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:33 pm GMT
Guest Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:22 pm GMT
"There is not mistery about the transition from Latin to Romance languages. "


Another citation:

"Les origines du français demeurent obscures."
Louis REMACLE, Le Problème de l'ancien wallon, p. 141.


Found on
http://www.lang.osaka-u.ac.jp/~benoit/fle/conferences/cerquiglini2.html
Leasnam   Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:38 pm GMT
<<And so on... >>

go on...

don't stop here--...
Guest   Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:53 am GMT
Another citation:

"Les origines du français demeurent obscures."
Louis REMACLE, Le Problème de l'ancien wallon, p. 141.

They remain obscure for him.
Ouest   Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:25 am GMT
Guest Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:09 pm GMT
""""""""""
<<Everybody is speaking of "vulgar Latin" as if this language was not only a hypothesis but a fact. There is not one single text fragment written in vulgar Latin known! Anyhow, the term "vulgar Latin" is just another word for mish-mash, Creole, mixed language, pot purri of Germanic and Latin. When a great number of uneducated immigrants (Germanic "barbars") came to Rome as foederati, slaves, settlers, soldiers or conquerors, they probably just reached a level of Latin that was not even a slang of Latin but a pseudo-Latin language, intelligible perhaps for a native Latin speaker and easy enough to be learned by newcomer-barbars. It then spread during the migration period to become after 600 the standard language in Germanic ruled Europe.>>

What the Germanic barbars have to do with vulgar latin?
""""


_____________________________________________

Germanic barbars were eager to learn the presigious Latin, but they were too numerous and the socially subordinated Romans in such a weak oposition that Latin was more or less destroyed - only some vocabulary survived in the new Creole "Vulgar Latin" language. This is especially true for French....
l'Est   Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:58 am GMT
What do you mean? How did Germanic languages affect the grammar of Romance languages?
Guest   Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:43 pm GMT
The Germanic invaders were not as numerous , perhaps only in Northern France they were, and also the fact that they ruled Romance countries does not mean they influenced the way the rest of people spoke Latin.
Leasnam   Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:47 pm GMT
<<What do you mean? How did Germanic languages affect the grammar of Romance languages? >>

1). Increased tendency to employ modal verbs
2). SVO syntax (except where pronouns are concerned); and interrogative VSO syntax (esp for French)
3). article usage (not found in Proto-Romance of Oaths of Stassbourg, nor in Latin, but practically universal in Romance, esp pre-positive except for Rumanian)
4). Use of 'habere' + past participle for complex past tense (present perfect)
5) Use of postpositioned modal use of 'habere' (infinitive + habere) for new future tense--also falls under #1) & #4 above

--the following are French specific
6). For French, forced use of prepositions before verbs
7). For French, forced placement of some adjectives before the noun; optional or change of meaning for others (cf. grand homme vs homme grand)

these are some of the main ones...
Guest   Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:57 pm GMT
Sardinian uses modal verbs even more heavily than Italian and Spanish .
Does it mean that Sardinian was exposed to the contact with Germanic settlers? it is considered to be the most isolated Romance language.
paul   Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:05 pm GMT
surnames in Northern France of the late middle ages were almost 100% of German origin like Robert, Lambert, Guilleaume etc.

Here a list of (aproximately one third of the) French words of Germanic origin:

Vocabulaire d'origine germanique

La liste qui suit ne contient pas la totalité des 400 mots germaniques recensés dans la langue parlée en Gaule à date ancienne, car beaucoup d'entre eux, attestés en ancien français, ont aujourd'hui dispqru et n'évoqueraient plus rien à nos contemporains (brant - lame d'épée, fuere - fourreau, rouche - iris etc...)

Parmi ceux qui sont parvenus jusqu'à nous (environ un tiers) on trouve des termes relatifs à :

La guerre et la chevalerie : bande, baron (homme brave, mari), bière (cercueil), blason, brandon, convoi, crosse, échanson, éperon, épieu, étrier, félon, fief, flèche, gain, gant, garçon (domestique), gars (soldat valet goujat), gonfanon (étendard), guerre, guet, hache, hanap, harangue, heame, honte, lice, maréchal, marquis, orgueil, rang, sénéchal, trêve, choisir, éblouir, épargner, fournir, gagner, garder, guetter, haïr, honnir, souiller.

La vie des champs : blé, vois, bûche, fange, fourrage, fourrure, framboise, garbe, germe, grappe, haie, hameau, hêtre, houe, houx, jardin, maris, osier, roseau, saule, touffe, trappe, troëne, caille, chouette, crapaud, frelon, hanneton, héron, laie, mésange.

La vie artisanale : alène, étai, feutre, filtre, houille, maçon, tuyau, bâtir, broyer, déchirer, gratter, graver, râper.

La vie maritime : bouée, écume, falaise, flot.

Les couleurs, blanc, bleu, blond, brun, fauve, garance, gris, saur.

La vie domestique : banc, beignet, bille, buée, crèche, cruche, écharpe, fard, fauteuil, flacon, froc, housse, lanière, louche, poche, quenotte, soupe, hanche, flanc, téton, fluet, frais, gai, laid, long, broder, danser, guérir, héberger, lécher, regarder, rôtir, téter, trépigner.
Leasnam   Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:06 pm GMT
<<Sardinian uses modal verbs even more heavily than Italian and Spanish .
Does it mean that Sardinian was exposed to the contact with Germanic settlers? it is considered to be the most isolated Romance language. >>

This thread is not a discussion of the Sardinian language.
I see what you're trying to do: reason in your bad science. Regardless of the development Sardinian, Sardinian doesn't speak for the whole of the Romance world. Vandals did occupy the island, but the language was vulgar Latin from the 3rd century on. And Sardinia isn't an isolated location. People from the mainland have come and gone for thousands of years, bringing their current language(s) with them (i.e. their updated versions of vulgar Latin). Just because the language of Sardinia has a reputation as the most conservative Romance language in terms of its phonetics doesn't mean that it is the most conservative or pure in terms of all remaining features.

This doesn't support any quack-hypothesis that "if it happened with Sardinian, then it could have happened with the others" ;)
Leasnam   Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:08 pm GMT
<<6). For French, forced use of prepositions before verbs >>

SELF-CORRECTION: this should read "6). For French, forced use of pronouns before verbs"
Leasnam   Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:16 pm GMT
<<Sardinian uses modal verbs even more heavily than Italian and Spanish .
Does it mean that Sardinian was exposed to the contact with Germanic settlers? it is considered to be the most isolated Romance language. >>

@ Guest Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:57 pm GMT
Sorry for the overkill above. I'm at work and switching modes sometimes leads me to be rather, um, brash. I apologize for the rudeness :)

<<Vocabulaire d'origine germanique
La liste qui suit ne contient pas la totalité des 400 mots germaniques recensés dans la langue parlée en Gaule à date ancienne, car beaucoup d'entre eux, attestés en ancien français, ont aujourd'hui dispqru et n'évoqueraient plus rien à nos contemporains (brant - lame d'épée, fuere - fourreau, rouche - iris etc...) >>

There are in fact more than these 400 words in French. The famous (or infamous, however you choose to look at it) "400" words are those from *ancient germanic* i.e. Frankish/Gothic/etc.

French actually contains a couple thousand germanic words, because borrowing from Netherlandic, English, Scandinavian, and especially German has continued throughout the history of the French language. It is not solely limited to these 400...
Caspian   Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:56 pm GMT
Let's face it, there's no such thing as a 'pure' language. Maybe something like Mentawai?
The truth   Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:38 am GMT
No, Sardinian is the most archaic Romance language not only in terms of phonetics. If Sardinian developed the usage prepositions and modal verbs to express future tense, or volition, for examplem also the rest of Romance languages can do the same thing without the need to use the extravagant theory of that Germanic influence. They simply evolved along 2000 years and thus lost some Latin features. That's all. The Germanic invaders ruled Romance countries but as long as they laked any culture they hardly could impact on the language of 90% of people. Also some of them like the Goths alread spoke Latin before they conquered Italy or Spain, they didn't even speak their ancestral Germanic tongue.
MM   Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:12 pm GMT
And does your "truth" have a source? Didn't think so.