Does English need a grammar wake up call?

Kate   Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:28 am GMT
You won't get an A if you don't obey the grammar.
Even in ''English grammar for dummies'', they state one should write IT WAS HE and not IT WAS HIM.

Object pronouns used as subject pronouns make no sense:

It's him.
Me thinks.
Me loves it!
Me and her left.
Johhny   Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:23 am GMT
<<Me and Jane went to the store. BAD GRAMMAR ALERT!
She is better than me. BAD GRAMMAR ALERT!

I wish I was there. BAD GRAMMAR ALERT!
Who did you see? BAD GRAMMAR ALERT!>>

ARCHAIC GRAMMAR ALERT! LOL

<<You won't get an A if you don't obey the grammar>>

What if I don't care about getting an A? Yes, "English Grammar for Dummies" is called so because it is really for dummies, only dummies can believe that stuff that was written to make dummies even more dumb.
Bad grammar is only bad for some people, and it's perfect for others. Or do you expect half a billion people to all speak or write the same way? And sentences like "She is better than me" or "Who did you see?" happen to be perfect grammar for most people. Others like "Is you ready?" happen to be acceptable grammar for Ebonics speakers and possibly some speakers of some other dialects.
Yeshua   Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:45 am GMT
<<You won't get an A if you don't obey the grammar>>

Native English speakers don't take ESL tests. And by the way, I have gotten plenty of A's even though I write things like "who did you see" and "better than me". You see, we are native speakers, and can write as we please and face no repercussions, where as you non-natives must obey the laws. It's like a society with a caste system, the native speakers are the ruling class who can do as they please and still be right, where as the non-natives are like the untouchables and even the slightest deviation leads to chopping-off of hands.
riodarro   Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:46 am GMT
<<<"Bouncing down the street and rolling into the gutter, John's eyes spotted the ball.">>>

<<<"Wondering irresolutely what to do next, the clock struck 10.">>>


Me thinks the above are apt examples of sentences containing "dangling participals." The subordinate clauses in sentence initial position, and beginning with a gerund, don't share the same subject, or referent, as the attached main clause. Definite red ballpoint scrawlings and reduced grade on the old essay for those. ¿or no?
Another Guest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:25 am GMT
Leasnam said:
<"me" as object makes no logical sense in this phrase as it is not the object of any verb (takes no action) nor is oblique in sense.>
"Me" is the object of "than". Is "than" not a preposition? So how is this not oblique? "Me" is not the subject of anything, verb or otherwise. It is the recipient of the action. Therefore, the most logical choice is to consider it to be an object.

<We say "The woman is better than the man"--both 'The woman' and 'the man' are nominative.>
"Nominative" is one of those linguistic words that make sense only when discussing foreign languages. English does not have a separate category of "nominative". Objective or subjective are the only cases that pronouns have.

<Correctly, it should be "I talked to her that answered the phone.">
Uh...no. "Her" is the subject of "answered". Therefore, the subjective pronoun is called for.

Kate said:
<You won't get an A if you don't obey the grammar.>
That should be just "You won't get an A if you don't obey grammar".

And it's true that many English teachers will mark "She is bigger than me" as wrong. That proves nothing other than many English teachers do not know English as well as I do.

<Object pronouns used as subject pronouns make no sense:>
But it "It's him", "him" is the object of "is".

Yeshua said:
<And by the way, I have gotten plenty of A's even though I write things like "who did you see" and "better than me".>
And "where as".
:)
Another Guest   Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:27 am GMT
By the way, this thread title isn't quite right; it should be "Does English need a grammar wake-up call?"
riodarro   Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:41 am GMT
<That proves nothing other than many English teachers do not know English as well as I do. >>

"Another Guest,"
Can I buy you a Martini poured in a glass slipper carved from South African diamonds worthy only of your, and your alone, discriminating, ever-pouting lips while the rest of us slop up the bottom-of-the-barrel, rot-gut grog. Let's all of us write fine and erotic poems in the Arabic/French troubador tradition to "Another Guest" that are based on his/her superior understanding and use of the word "oblique," mentioning of logical sense, pronoun cases, and categories of nominatives.
I bow down to you "Another Guest" and offer you said Martinis and hope that when drained, the contents of the diamond-carved slipper go first to your mind, and then to your bowels so that your hopelessly tightened sphincter finally relaxes-even for a fleeting moment.

Oh, and peace and love and grains of salt. It's all for fun, no?
Thanks for the albeit superiority-complexed posting. You're sure to meet friends here "Another Guest."
RD
Danni   Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:27 am GMT
<You won't get an A if you don't obey the grammar.
Even in ''English grammar for dummies'', they state one should write IT WAS HE and not IT WAS HIM. >

When one has left school, one doesn't look for "As", does one?
barrle   Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:31 am GMT
<Object pronouns used as subject pronouns make no sense: >

They make sense to the people who use them, I imagine. Not all of us want to use Standard grammar all of the time.
MollyB   Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:37 am GMT
Someone should teach Kate about "Englishes" and the word/s "bi/multidialectal".
Danni   Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:40 am GMT
<<Someone should teach Kate about "Englishes" and the word/s "bi/multidialectal".>>

And about presriptivism and descriptivism.
MollyB   Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:00 am GMT
<"She is better than I am [better]" >

More, "She is better (at doing X) than I am ("good" at doing x)."

Which would you use here?

"I am good at doing X, but she is better than I/me."
Danni   Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:55 am GMT
<That proves nothing other than many English teachers do not know English as well as I do. >

Or that teachers are controlled by the management of the academies they work for. Also, many teachers are controlled by examining bodies.
???   Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:03 pm GMT
>>"Whom" has largely disappeared from English, and I would much prefer that people who don't understand the distinction drop the word altogether, rather than try to guess which one is correct. One hundred "Who did you see?" are better than one "Whom is coming?"<<

True, I always wonders what possesses a native speaker to suddenly use 'whom' as a subject. They must somehow convince themselves it sounds right, because there certainly ain't no reasoning behind it!
BlanccnalB   Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:48 pm GMT
Probably it's people being pretentious and trying to make themselves sound more educated.